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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 12:32:26 GMT -6
It's been a while since I was last here, but I wanted to share with you folks some selected examples of a semi-historical build I made in my most recent career in Rule the Waves. This is posted from my career in Rule the Waves v1.34b1 as of June 1920 where I have just come up against the 20-year limitation on service life I am holding myself to. (It's a House Rule of mine.) I have just gone to war with Great Britain, and as they are the only country in my game which outmatches me, I need to scrap old ships to make way for an entire generation of Dreadnaughts. I wanted to screenshot and document my builds before I start scrapping the old ships. A few notes before I begin: - The first and only consideration overriding all other decisions is to make every ship USEFUL in the game. I am not building obsolete eye-candy, I am building WARSHIPS.
- The creation of each ship followed this priority: Displacement, Speed, Range, Weapons, Armor, in that order.
- Where possible, I used either the 'Empty' displacement, or 'Loaded' displacement figures given for each ship class.
- Speed was matched to the quoted speed, any variation is the result of in-game events.
- Weapons loadout was as accurate as possible, given the restrictions imposed by the game engine, or technology limitations.
- Ship layout was as accurate as possible, given the technology restrictions imposed by the game. (I.E. Not having Cross-Deck Fire available for Maine and Texas in 1899.)
- Armor scheme, and armor thickness, is measured in proportion to the real ship, but the differences imposed by steel composition (ala Harvey Steel and Krupp Steel) were ignored due to game limitations. Instead, I tried to make the overall protection of the ship match it's real-world counterpart wherever possible, with very few exceptions. (I.E. Conning Tower Armor is very lightweight, so I use it as a dump-stat to absorb extra displacement not being used, etc...)
- Ship classes were firmly adhered to, except for Maine and Texas in the Legacy Fleet.
- The Indiana-Class Battleships (10,000 tons) are missing from this list, having already been scrapped after a 15-year service as being hopelessly obsolete.
All ship reference was taken from the Wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_shipsI wanted to use only a single source, to ensure uniformity of data. Let's begin: - Historical Description:
- The USS Maine, and USS Texas, were the first "Modern" "Battleships" built for the US Navy, both being ordered on 3 August, 1886.
- The delivery of the Brazilian battleship Riachuelo in 1883 and the acquisition of other armored warships by Brazil, Argentina, and Chile shortly afterward alarmed the United States government, as the Brazilian Navy was now the most powerful in the Western Hemisphere. The United States Navy now felt capable only of defending its own ports. The Chairman of the House Naval Affairs Committee, Congressman Hilary A. Herbert characterized the situation thusly: "if all this old navy of ours were drawn up in battle array in mid-ocean and confronted by the Riachuelo it is doubtful whether a single vessel bearing the American flag would get into port." - Wiki
Historically, Maine was armed with 4 10-inch guns, and Texas had a pair of 12-inch guns. However, given the fact a 6,000 ton Battleship has absolutely no chance of doing anything useful in the game, and given the fact both Texas and Maine were later re-classified as Armored Cruisers, I decided to designate them as such from the outset. This limited the main armament I was able to install. They were also unable to use their historical Cross-Deck Fire layout. The armor scheme for both is of the Protected Cruiser type, and their displacement, speed, armor thickness, and armament is in proportion to the real ships. (Sort of.) Because the Armament of Texas is smaller than Maine, I absorbed some of the extra weight by making it a Colonial Cruiser. Both ships served in Southeast Asia for their entire career, being functionally obsolete even at the start of the game. They both participated in the Battle of Kwang Chou Wan against Japan in 1906. While Texas did little more than sit in port providing tonnage, Maine later met a Japanese Raider and sunk it, being the first U.S. Navy ship in to destroy a Japanese ship. That battle is detailed here: nws-online.proboards.com/thread/1100/turning-point-aar(Yes it was a casualty of the Photobucket debacle.) In my next post, we'll look at the Battleships that made up the rest of the Legacy Fleet.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 13:15:39 GMT -6
My remaining ACR from my Legacy Fleet still in service: - Historical Description:
- Brooklyn was said to be an improved New York at the time of her completion. She was also designed by the Navy Department and was about 1,000 tons larger, which allowed for a raised forecastle for better seakeeping. However, Brooklyn sacrificed armor for improved armament. She had eight 8-inch guns compared to New York's six, and all were in twin turrets. The secondary armament was increased in caliber from New York's 4-inch guns to 5-inch guns. Brooklyn had her turrets in a "lozenge" arrangement (one each fore and aft, one on each side) and also had a tumblehome hull, which allowed the side turrets to fire dead ahead and astern. She was the only US Navy ship built with this turret arrangement. The tumblehome hull and "lozenge" arrangement were rare in the US Navy, but at the time were prevalent in the French Navy and in French-designed Russian ships, such as the French Magenta and the Russian Tsesarevich. - Wiki
To build my own USS Brooklyn, I decided to interpret the description literally, and simply make it 1,000 tons heavier, and "improved" over my USS New York. The main gun armament was enlarged, the armor was made slightly thicker, while losing out on speed due to a game event. This is one of the most significant departures from historical reality I made. Without a cross-deck fire capability, and only being able to mount two main turrets, I had to do some major compromises. Instead of eight 8-inch guns in double turrets, I mounted four 10-inch guns, to make her "competitive" with foreign cruisers of comparable displacement. I could not add the wing turrets due to game limitations. The remainder of the main battery firepower of the historical ship was averaged by a heavy secondary battery, of 7-inch guns in casemates. The historical Brooklyn literally bristled with guns, and I wanted to capture the same feeling, with large secondary and HUGE tertiary batteries. Despite this flagrant display of firepower (for an 1899 Armored Cruiser), she spent her entire career without seeing any action, being stationed in the Caribbean after the war against France, stationed in Southeast Asia after the war with Japan, and currently stationed in Northeast Asia at the Kamchatka Naval Base after the war with Russia.
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Post by Noname117 on Nov 11, 2017 13:19:51 GMT -6
I wonder if you could edit the game files to give you the technologies required to make the ships for the legacy fleet, then, once the fleet is done, remove said technologies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 13:23:50 GMT -6
I wonder if you could edit the game files to give you the technologies required to make the ships for the legacy fleet, then, once the fleet is done, remove said technologies. That could be done, but I will not do it. All designs presented are possible to build within an unmodified career game. My intention is to capture the "feel" of the historic US Navy, without having to capture the nitty-gritty details, and also provide a reference to anyone looking to do something similar. More posts to follow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 13:48:53 GMT -6
The oldest Pre-Dreadnaught Battleship still in service: - Historical Description:
- On 19 July 1892, the Congress of the United States authorized a 9,000 long tons (9,100t) warship; specifically, it was to be a "seagoing coastline battleship" to fulfill the Navy's desire for a ship that could operate effectively in open waters. The preceding Indiana class, authorized by Congress as "coast defense battleships", had many problems with endurance and speed. Iowa had a unique design and did not belong to a specific ship class, but she represented an upgrade from the Indiana class. - Wiki
The USS Iowa preceded the earlier Indiana-Class Battleships, and was the first ship I made that closely conformed to the historical ship. The only departure was in secondary armament, given the fact you cannot have double turreted heavy secondary armament in 1899. Thus, I single mounted the secondary weapons in casemates, and I did have to substitute 7-inch guns for the actual 8-inch guns because of game limitations. The tertiary armament, and torpedo mounts are an abstraction, and mainly exist because US ships of the time were liberally festooned with small guns, and I had plenty of spare displacement for torpedoes. (Not to mention, lacking a torpedo armament can really kill your usefulness over a long service life.) Displacement is given as 11,528 tons, but I rounded it down because even fully loaded with ammo, I still had room to spare. The design speed was 17 knots, but for some reason my early US ships had trouble reaching their design speed. (This happened ALOT!) The USS Iowa served as Flagship of the Caribbean Fleet, and saw action against the French, and later spearheaded the campaign against Japan. After the Japanese War, she remained in Asia, and is currently the largest ship stationed in Kamchatka.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 14:16:11 GMT -6
- Historical Description:
- The Kearsarge-class battleships were two pre-dreadnought battleships built for the United States Navy at the beginning of the 20th century. They were designed to be used for coastal defense. Both of the ships, USS Kearsarge and USS Kentucky, were authorized in 1895 and commissioned in 1900. Neither ship participated in a major battle, although they participated in the Great White Fleet, the oldest ships on the cruise.
The Kearsarge was another ship class I couldn't completely re-create in the game. Once again, the layout of the secondary battery had to be changed, and re-creating the 'double-turrets' fore and aft is not possible in the game. 7-inch guns are substituted for the real 8-inchers, and the tertiary battery is an abstraction. However, the real ship DID have torpedo tubes, so these are included. I also didn't have 13-inch guns available for Legacy Fleet use, so 12-inch guns are substituted. The displacement is slightly abstracted because I wanted a clear delineation between this class and the preceding USS Iowa. The Kearsarge Class served in the Atlantic Fleet during the French War, and saw no action. Subsequently they were transferred to the Pacific, and saw action against Japan (hence the battle stars). They remained part of the Asiatic Fleet, and are still based in the Philippines.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 14:42:56 GMT -6
In the early campaign, the historical use of both high-freeboard, and low-freeboard ships, for either deep water, or coastal defense, can provide some advantages in use of displacement. - Historical Description:
- Design work on what became the Illinois class began on 25 March 1896, when Rear Admiral J. G. Walker convened a board to consider future battleship designs. At this time, the only modern battleship in service was the low-freeboard Indiana; the high-freeboard battleship Iowa and the low-freeboard Kearsarge class were under construction. As the Navy had little experience with modern battleships, the question settled on whether to repeat one of the low-freeboard designs, which were suitable for coast defense, to build another Iowa, or to request a new design altogether. The Walker Board determined that another coastal battleship design would be imprudent, since the United States had long coastlines and therefore the new ships would need to have better seakeeping qualities than the Indiana or Kearsarge designs.
The Illinois Class represented the permanent shift away from low-freeboard designs, and began the trend towards a true "Blue Water" navy. As I was constructing my Legacy Fleet, I paid attention to the use of normal and low freeboard, which allowed some classes to use heavier armaments, thicker armor, or simply carry more ammo. Once again, 12-inch guns had to be used in place of the real 13-inch main guns. The 6-inch secondary battery was reduced from 14 guns down to 12 to save weight. Once again, the tertiary battery is an abstraction. The real ship did have torpedo tubes. My Illinois Class served with the Atlantic Fleet during the French War, were based in the Caribbean during the Japanese War, but did see some action in the Russian War. They are currently based in Southeast Asia. These three ships finish off the remainder of my Legacy Fleet that is still in service as of June 1920. All of these ships have had a comparatively long service life, and despite the fact they've reached Planned Obsolescence, they're still holding the line until the seven Dreadnaught-Class Battleships in construction can be finished. My next posts will detail the Light Cruisers, and Destroyers that were added to my fleet in 1900, most of which were based on 1890's designs. Further posts to follow. Regards, SLIM
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 14:55:38 GMT -6
List included:
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Post by aeson on Nov 11, 2017 15:26:33 GMT -6
I wonder if you could edit the game files to give you the technologies required to make the ships for the legacy fleet, then, once the fleet is done, remove said technologies. It'd probably be easier to edit the design files after the ships have been built, as long as you aren't building more than a handful of ships that make use of cross-deck fire. Personally, I tend to feel that battleship torpedoes decline in usefulness as the game goes on. Even legacy fleet battleships are valuable enough that I don't really want them closing to torpedo range with anything that isn't already effectively dead, especially as I tend to find that my ships have difficulty actually hitting anything that isn't dead in the water even with late-game torpedoes, and the four 11" or 12" guns will become good enough to more or less obviate the need for the torpedoes by the time you're ready to retire the ships in the mid 1910s to early 1920s, if not earlier.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 20:18:48 GMT -6
Personally, I tend to feel that battleship torpedoes decline in usefulness as the game goes on. Even legacy fleet battleships are valuable enough that I don't really want them closing to torpedo range with anything that isn't already effectively dead, especially as I tend to find that my ships have difficulty actually hitting anything that isn't dead in the water even with late-game torpedoes, and the four 11" or 12" guns will become good enough to more or less obviate the need for the torpedoes by the time you're ready to retire the ships in the mid 1910s to early 1920s, if not earlier. Well, let's just say I prefer to fight at very close range. I also prefer to have every possible weapon combination at my disposal, at all times. You might think they're useless, but that one time you see a smaller ship take down a larger one with a miracle torpedo shot, you'll never go without them again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 11:46:26 GMT -6
My apologies for the delay, but work, and life, etc. etc. My next installment will show off the Light Cruisers and Destroyers that I had set as 'Under Construction' at the start of my career. Despite having 'Historical Resources' turned on, and the Fleet Size set to Very Large, I didn't have as much money as I wanted, and had to allow for my smaller ships to be under construction instead of starting in active service. - Historical Description:
- As the U.S. Navy began to rebuild its fleet with steel-hulled vessels to keep pace with the advance of naval technology in the 1880s, it explored a wide range of design concepts. Among the approaches to the protected cruiser design was that of a small and fast commerce raider. Thus, in the 1888 naval appropriations bill, Congress set aside money to build five such vessels, two Cincinnati class of 3,000 tons and three Montgomery class of 2,000 tons.
I decided to take a turn away from history with these two Light Cruiser classes. In the game, CL's serve two real purposes: commerce raiding, and fleet scouts or escorts. With that in mind, I knew for a fact that the historical 19 and 18 knot speed was far too slow to be useful. So, in order to make better speed, I shrank the displacement of the Cincinnati Class, and had to enlarge the Montgomery Class, because 6 inch guns require a certain minimum displacement (2,600 tons). So, both ships ended up being 2,600 tons, however, they differed as to their intended purpose. The Cincinnati Class has thicker armor and heavier guns, so I used them as fleet scouts and escorts. The Montgomery Class, on the other hand, historically had no armor and smaller guns, so I gave them Long Range, and their entire career has been spent raiding. (In terms of ship design, 2 inches is the thinnest amount of armor I ever fit to a ship, which is why the historically unarmored Montgomery Class has that applied to it.)
As far as their career goes, the fact all five ships are appearing on this list, shows that all five are still in service. The Cincinnati Class were used as scouts and escorts in the Active Fleet until 1906 when the Pennsylvania Class came out of the yards. In my current war with Great Britain in 1921, all five CL's are being used as raiders, with the USS Cincinnati unfortunately being interned in a neutral port due to a lack of fuel. Despite my losses in fleet engagements, these five ships are still taking down a steady trickle of merchant ships, and the USS Raleigh recently fought and heavily damaged a British Light Cruiser of nearly THREE TIMES her displacement! It just goes to show, in Rule the Waves, your Light Cruisers never truly become obsolete.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 12:41:57 GMT -6
- Historical Description:
- The Columbia-class cruisers were two protected cruisers constructed in 1890 and 1891 and used by the United States Navy. They were lightly gunned ships with only moderate armor that were built for the speed needed to overtake and destroy the fast ocean liners of the day as commerce raiders. However, the light armament and armor left these ships over-specialized and outclassed by ordinary similar sized protected cruisers that they might encounter.
For a 7,500 ton Light Cruiser, the Colombia Class certainly are lightly gunned. However, they have decent speed, long range, and were used exclusively as raiders in my campaign. The two ships lack of battle stars shows exactly what they've been up to, aside from a few gun battles with patrolling cruisers, they've been raiding and sinking merchants since 1900. Even enemy Armored Cruisers learned not to get in their way, because while only mounting a single 8 inch gun forward, if you do manage to get a hit on an enemy, you will easily punch through the armor on anything approaching your weight class. It often only took one or two such hits for enemy cruisers to get the hint and run away. Despite the historical criticism, in Rule the Waves, the Columbia Class has been master of the shipping lanes for over 20 years, and is still in service. - Historical Description:
- The Denver-class cruisers were a group of six protected cruisers in service with the United States Navy from 1903 through 1929. Authorized by Congress in 1899 as part of the naval buildup touched off by the Spanish–American War, they were designed with peacetime duties on foreign stations and tropical service in mind, specifically patrolling Latin America and the Caribbean. However, they had insufficient armament, armor, and speed for combat with most other cruisers. Thus, they were also called "peace cruisers" and were effectively gunboats. They were intended to augment the Montgomery class in these roles.
As you can see, despite the fact there are six ships in the class, there is only a single Denver Class ship in this list. Why? Because the USS Des Moines was sunk in battle, off the coast of Alaska, against Japanese ships on 2/19/1908. After the rather ignominious loss of the USS Des Moines, the entire Denver Class was stricken from active duty, and sent to the scrapyard. The Denver Class were much like the Montgomery Class, lightly armored, but with the slightly heavier guns of the Cincinnati Class, and her much larger displacement was taken up with larger engines, giving greater speed, but only over a short range. As a result, she was unsuited for raiding, and was used as a coastal patrol cruiser, and fleet escort in local waters. The stress of being assigned combat duties, and an active role in chasing enemy raiders was too much for a cruiser never designed for such things, and the Denver Class went to the scrapyards after only ten years of service. - Historical Description:
- Officially designated as Torpedo Boat Destroyers (TBDs) when authorized by an Act of Congress on 4 May 1898 under the fiscal year 1899 program, the Bainbridge-class destroyers were the first destroyers so designated of the United States Navy, built from 1899 through 1903. These were the first 13 of 16 TBDs (3 were Truxtun-class TBDs) authorized by Congress in 1898 following the Spanish–American War, and were decommissioned and sold in 1919 following service in World War I. One ship was lost at sea: Chauncey, which collided with the British merchant ship SS Rose in 1917. After decommissioning, the 12 remaining ships were sold to Joseph G. Hitner of Philadelphia, except for Hopkins. Hopkins was sold to the Denton Shore Lumber Company in Tampa, Florida.
The 13 Bainbridge Class destroyers formed the core of my Destroyer force for 6 years. Playing with a slow technology advance, and also not getting any displacement upgrades left me with nothing but the Bainbridge and Truxton classes until well after both were obsolete. The three Bainbridge listed above were all lost in battle in 1906-07 against the Japanese, and the remaining ships were scrapped shortly afterward as new Destroyers came in to replace them. - Historical Description:
- Three Truxtun-class destroyers were built for the United States Navy. Part of the original 16 destroyers authorized by Congress on 4 May 1898 for the fiscal year 1899 program, they were commissioned in 1902. They were very similar to their Bainbridge-class contemporaries, except for mounting six 6-pounder (57 mm) guns instead of five. They were considered the most successful of the first 16 US Navy destroyers, and were succeeded by the larger Smith class.
The Truxton Class differed from the Bainbridge Class in having a slightly heavier armament. So all I did was take the existing Bainbridge, mount slightly larger guns, and name it the Truxton. (No, I didn't notice the name was spelled wrong until after I designed the ship.) The 3 ships of the Truxton Class spent the entire campaign in Southeast Asia. I knew that in the case of any fighting out there, the mainly obsolete battle ships stationed there would need a bit of help, so I stationed my most capable destroyers there. Once again, the only reason a single ship appears in this list is that the USS Worden was sunk in the battle of Kwang Chou Wan on 6/18/1906 against Japan. 1906 would become known as the, "Black Year of the Destroyer Force," with 4 destroyers sunk in battle, and an entire class being sent to the scrapyard. Only by breaking my own house rule, and designing the Paulding Class early, was the weakness in the destroyer force remedied. So, here you have my ship designs for the start of the career. As previously explained, game limitations had some effect on the ship designs. As I move further into the campaign, you'll see the designs get more historically accurate. Next time, we'll see the beginnings of the larger and more numerous classes. Some of the one-off designs have already been scrapped, so they won't be featured.
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Post by aeson on Nov 21, 2017 14:36:02 GMT -6
You can put 6" guns on vessels smaller than 2600t, as long as you're willing to take an accuracy and ROF penalty, and as the listed ROF mod is only -10 for 6" guns on 2100t ships I don't think it'd be too severe a handicap. You'd still have had to play with the size of the Montgomery-class cruisers as the game doesn't consider 2000t ships to be legal, as far as I can tell (needs to be larger than 2000t to count as a CL and smaller than 1800t to count as an MS), and you'd still need to decide whether the ~0.5" armor on the Montgomerys would round to 1" (required for CL) or 0" (allowable if MS) if you wanted a more historically-accurate version of the ship, but it could be done. You'd also need to drop the torpedo armament from the Montgomerys as the game doesn't allow submerged torpedo tubes on vessels smaller than 2500t or above-water tubes on anything other than destroyers until very late in the game. Also, I don't entirely agree that an 18-19kn cruiser is too slow to be useful. It'd be about as useful in the 1900s within the game as the more typical 20-23kn 1899 and early 1900s cruisers are in the 1910s, or as the 25-30kn cruisers of the late 1900s and early 1910s are in the 1920s. The problem is more that unless you choose to leave a lot of free tonnage on the ship, you're not going to get enough of a discount for the ship relative to the more typical 20-23kn 1899 cruisers with comparable armor and armament for building a ship which has been designed to model something that's already been in service for roughly a third to half of its useful life to be worthwhile, outside perhaps of some special use cases (e.g. colonial cruisers meant for fulfilling foreign station requirements as cheaply as possible). That being said, if someone wants a more historical Montgomery- or Cincinnati-class cruiser model, I'd suggest something similar to one of these: I personally think SLIM's versions are more useful over a longer period of time within the game, however.
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Post by bcoopactual on Nov 21, 2017 17:34:15 GMT -6
I wonder if you could edit the game files to give you the technologies required to make the ships for the legacy fleet, then, once the fleet is done, remove said technologies. It'd probably be easier to edit the design files after the ships have been built, as long as you aren't building more than a handful of ships that make use of cross-deck fire. I believe that when you manually create your legacy fleet the RTWGame1.bcs file is not generated until after you click that you are done building your legacy fleet. So the only way to add cross deck fire to a legacy ship is to modify the ship files as aeson mentioned. That's good work @slim. I tried something similar when I first got the game but I found that the USN's legacy fleet is hopelessly outclassed in game. B's and ACR's with only 17 knots or lower speed, CL's with speeds below 22 knots knots, etc. That stuff will get you killed in game.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 17:58:33 GMT -6
You can put 6" guns on vessels smaller than 2600t, as long as you're willing to take an accuracy and ROF penalty, and as the listed ROF mod is only -10 for 6" guns on 2100t ships I don't think it'd be too severe a handicap. That's true, but I wasn't willing to take the penalty, especially with only two guns in the main battery, which already has a penalty to accuracy. Also, I don't entirely agree that an 18-19kn cruiser is too slow to be useful. It'd be about as useful in the 1900s within the game as the more typical 20-23kn 1899 and early 1900s cruisers are in the 1910s, or as the 25-30kn cruisers of the late 1900s and early 1910s are in the 1920s. If their sole job was to be raiders, I would agree, but in the early game they also needed to be fleet escorts and scouts, which requires enough speed to outpace the line of battle. The problem is more that unless you choose to leave a lot of free tonnage on the ship, you're not going to get enough of a discount for the ship relative to the more typical 20-23kn 1899 cruisers with comparable armor and armament for building a ship which has been designed to model something that's already been in service for roughly a third to half of its useful life to be worthwhile, outside perhaps of some special use cases (e.g. colonial cruisers meant for fulfilling foreign station requirements as cheaply as possible). It was more the lack of flexibility imposed by having historical resources turned on, which limits the early game income quite a bit. I just couldn't afford to build such specialized designs. That being said, if someone wants a more historical Montgomery- or Cincinnati-class cruiser model, I'd suggest something similar to one of these: Those look really sweet, thanks for posting! I personally think SLIM's versions are more useful over a longer period of time within the game, however. They did manage to survive until now (mostly), and are still in the Active Fleet in January 1921. Of course, they are relegated to nothing but raiding duties, but they serve perfectly well doing so.
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