Can there and will there be Pirates

[mason531]

Some fellow people brought up a great point but will there be pirates? I know the time of piracy is over but i believe this could be a neat feature to have when creating a game ethier to choose to have pirates or to not.

P.s i like to ask lots of idea style questions lol

[oldpop2000]

Aug 13, 2018 19:38:06 GMT -6 mason531 said:

Some fellow people brought up a great point but will there be pirates? I know the time of piracy is over but i believe this could be a neat feature to have when creating a game ethier to choose to have pirates or to not.

P.s i like to ask lots of idea style questions lol

I am the one who brought up pirates and piracy has begun to be reborn. There are now pirates in the Caribbean since 2010. We know about the Somalian pirates. Falcon lake which is on the border between the US and Mexico. Gulf of Guinea in West Africa. There are pirates in the Indian Ocean and the Straits of Malacca. Iraq has now experienced piracy in the Persian Gulf. Piracy is not dead. 

[noshurviverse]

I can't really seeing pirates appearing in any real way outside of minor events on the world screen or as an extension of colony tonnage. Modern piracy mostly is limited to small skiffs boarding lone cargo ships, hardly the kind of thing that a RtW combat scenario would make interesting. The only way I could see it is if you're asking for an option at the start to have pirates that somehow have the means of maintaining a surface fleet of modern military ships. At that point, you've pretty much crossed into historical fantasy as opposed to the alternative history that RtW tends to do.

[Noname117]

After a brief searching of the history of piracy on Wikipedia, it seems like introducing pirates into Rule the Waves would be a bad idea. The concept of ocean piracy basically ended with the age of sail; the steamboats killed it. Ocean-going piracy died in the early to mid 1800s. And it didn't return until a few decades ago, with the pirates using fast, small boats to catch larger ships and cold-war era to modern weapons to hold the crews hostage.


Privateering went out of practice in the 1850s and 1860s, with the American Civil War being one of the last refuges of the practice.


During the time period in which RTW2 would take place, the only significant piracy which seems to have been occurring was happening on rivers and on lakes. The ocean-going piracy just didn't occur anymore, and to have that type of piracy actually be an important factor in the game you'd have to extend the time period of the game by either half a century forwards or backwards.

It's just honestly not something which should be included outside of maybe an event or two and maybe a requirement to keep some gunboats in a particular area (like the Yangtze patrol).



Also, one more thing to add to this; on Wikipedia's "list of pirates" page, looking at the 1900s to today section, there was a total of 1 significant ocean-going pirate who was active within the time period of RTW2 who was not associated with a navy fighting a world war or a coup attempt. And that pirate and his crew attacked fishing boats.

[oldpop2000]

Aug 14, 2018 5:10:55 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

After a brief searching of the history of piracy on Wikipedia, it seems like introducing pirates into Rule the Waves would be a bad idea. The concept of ocean piracy basically ended with the age of sail; the steamboats killed it. Ocean-going piracy died in the early to mid 1800s. And it didn't return until a few decades ago, with the pirates using fast, small boats to catch larger ships and cold-war era to modern weapons to hold the crews hostage.


Privateering went out of practice in the 1850s and 1860s, with the American Civil War being one of the last refuges of the practice.


During the time period in which RTW2 would take place, the only significant piracy which seems to have been occurring was happening on rivers and on lakes. The ocean-going piracy just didn't occur anymore, and to have that type of piracy actually be an important factor in the game you'd have to extend the time period of the game by either half a century forwards or backwards.

It's just honestly not something which should be included outside of maybe an event or two and maybe a requirement to keep some gunboats in a particular area (like the Yangtze patrol).



Also, one more thing to add to this; on Wikipedia's "list of pirates" page, looking at the 1900s to today section, there was a total of 1 significant ocean-going pirate who was active within the time period of RTW2 who was not associated with a navy fighting a world war or a coup attempt. And that pirate and his crew attacked fishing boats.

Well, I don't research much in Wikipedia, but I do have a subscription to Naval Institute News and there have been many articles concerning Piracy in the areas I have already indicated. Piracy will never go away, it is just something many areas have to put up with. Economics and weak or failed governments has much to do with it.

[Noname117]

So where, and how, was it done from 1900-1950 then? I'd like to find out more, and Wikipedia definitely isn't that great of a resource.

[Fredrik W]

There will be no pirates in RTW2. These are minor things simulated in the game by the need to keep ships in the colonies.

[oldpop2000]

Aug 14, 2018 9:39:42 GMT -6 Fredrik W said:

There will be no pirates in RTW2. These are minor things simulated in the game by the need to keep ships in the colonies.

How about a future add-on like RTW2- Piracy, that would be cool

[oldpop2000]

Aug 14, 2018 9:33:46 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

So where, and how, was it done from 1900-1950 then? I'd like to find out more, and Wikipedia definitely isn't that great of a resource.

Here is a link to Proceedings archive with articles on modern Piracy. Here is one from 1995, a little old, but relevant. If you see an article you want, I will login and get it. Hurry up, because I am not going to renew the subscription. Just page through because the most recent are on other pages. It should show you that piracy, of some  sort is still relevant and possibly more of a problem than we realize.  www.usni.org/search/apachesolr_search/piracy

The Growing Threat of Modern Piracy.pdf (178.91 KB)

[Noname117]

Aug 14, 2018 9:44:45 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Aug 14, 2018 9:33:46 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

So where, and how, was it done from 1900-1950 then? I'd like to find out more, and Wikipedia definitely isn't that great of a resource.

Here is a link to Proceedings archive with articles on modern Piracy. Here is one from 1995, a little old, but relevant. If you see an article you want, I will login and get it. Hurry up, because I am not going to renew the subscription. Just page through because the most recent are on other pages. It should show you that piracy, of some  sort is still relevant and possibly more of a problem than we realize.  www.usni.org/search/apachesolr_search/piracy

The preview on this article about the Panama canal looks like it could yield some information.
www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1913-06/panama-canal

So far I'm on page 13 and I haven't found anything talking about piracy after the age of sail and before the internet. It really doesn't seem like much piracy took place from about 1870-1990.

[oldpop2000]

Aug 14, 2018 11:07:56 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

Aug 14, 2018 9:44:45 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Here is a link to Proceedings archive with articles on modern Piracy. Here is one from 1995, a little old, but relevant. If you see an article you want, I will login and get it. Hurry up, because I am not going to renew the subscription. Just page through because the most recent are on other pages. It should show you that piracy, of some  sort is still relevant and possibly more of a problem than we realize.  www.usni.org/search/apachesolr_search/piracy

The preview on this article about the Panama canal looks like it could yield some information.
www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1913-06/panama-canal

So far I'm on page 13 and I haven't found anything talking about piracy after the age of sail and before the internet. It really doesn't seem like much piracy took place from about 1870-1990.

I don't doubt that there isn't much piracy in that immediate area, piracy generally takes place in areas with little or no naval support, that is not one of them. Economics has a lot to do with also, so I suspect there isn't much piracy in that area. But evidence is that it still exists. I will go to RAND and find some more. Possibly Brookings.

Here are two more articles, from RAND. How many more articles, relevant and recent does everyone need to realize that terrorism and piracy go together and they still exist. 


RAND_CF269.pdf (566.68 KB)RAND_MG697.pdf (460.78 KB)

[Noname117]

Aug 14, 2018 11:26:12 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Aug 14, 2018 11:07:56 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

The preview on this article about the Panama canal looks like it could yield some information.
www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1913-06/panama-canal

So far I'm on page 13 and I haven't found anything talking about piracy after the age of sail and before the internet. It really doesn't seem like much piracy took place from about 1870-1990.

I don't doubt that there isn't much piracy in that immediate area, piracy generally takes place in areas with little or no naval support, that is not one of them. Economics has a lot to do with also, so I suspect there isn't much piracy in that area. But evidence is that it still exists. I will go to RAND and find some more. Possibly Brookings.

Here are two more articles, from RAND. How many more articles, relevant and recent does everyone need to realize that terrorism and piracy go together and they still exist. 


View AttachmentView Attachment

I kind of feel like you’re missing my point here. I’m not arguing against piracy existing today; I’m arguing against piracy existing in a significant way in the time period RTW2 is supposed to take place in.

The pirates of the age of sail got squashed out in the early to mid 1800s, dying between 1850-1870 from what I’ve seen.

The modern pirates got their beginning in the early 1990s with the collapse of Somolia. It’s spread elsewhere since, but it seems like it wasn’t really happening before that.

The game takes place from 1900-1950. There really weren’t many pirates in that time period, from what I can find, and the few instances that I’ve come across seem smaller and more isolated than both the pirates of old and the pirates of new.

Piracy is both too old and too new (by about 40 years both ways) to fit within the game’s timeline. I’ll change my opinion if you can find articles which state otherwise.

[oldpop2000]

Aug 14, 2018 12:03:51 GMT -6 Noname117 said:

Aug 14, 2018 11:26:12 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

I don't doubt that there isn't much piracy in that immediate area, piracy generally takes place in areas with little or no naval support, that is not one of them. Economics has a lot to do with also, so I suspect there isn't much piracy in that area. But evidence is that it still exists. I will go to RAND and find some more. Possibly Brookings.

Here are two more articles, from RAND. How many more articles, relevant and recent does everyone need to realize that terrorism and piracy go together and they still exist. 

I kind of feel like you’re missing my point here. I’m not arguing against piracy existing today; I’m arguing against piracy existing in a significant way in the time period RTW2 is supposed to take place in.

The pirates of the age of sail got squashed out in the early to mid 1800s, dying between 1850-1870 from what I’ve seen.

The modern pirates got their beginning in the early 1990s with the collapse of Somolia. It’s spread elsewhere since, but it seems like it wasn’t really happening before that.

The game takes place from 1900-1950. There really weren’t many pirates in that time period, from what I can find, and the few instances that I’ve come across seem smaller and more isolated than both the pirates of old and the pirates of new.

Piracy is both too old and too new (by about 40 years both ways) to fit within the game’s timeline. I’ll change my opinion if you can find articles which state otherwise.

Actually I am not, Piracy  has existed since the times of the Egyptians, it has ebbed and flowed but it has still existed. It has existed in many different spots including the Indian Ocean, Southeast Asia, china and off Madagascar in the late 19th century. Why did the British have a large fleet of cruiser types? to guard against pirates, not other nations. The Dutch and the French had the same issues in the Far East. There were problems in South America in this time period. It has never gone away.

[Spaghet Shipwright]

The foreign tonnage requirements for overseas holdings addresses this enough. Given the nation to nation scale of RTW, pirates would be an unnecessary annoyance to the player that could never present a worthy challenge worth their time(it'd be like adding more coastal patrol missions). At most an economic hit from insufficient ships patrolling your holdings could work, but the prestige hit already represents a high enough price that players cannot ignore it for more than 1-2 turns.

[director]

For piracy to flourish you need pirates, a protectable sanctuary and a way to fence goods. The 'golden ages' of piracy, whether Roman, North African or Caribbean, involved piracy that was basically subsidized and/or winked at by major naval powers. The pirate havens were cleared out when a naval power (Rome, Great Britain) decided to shut down the operation.

East African and South-east Asian piracy today happens because there is either a failed state or no state (providing a haven) and because there is no way to fence a large quantity of goods. If modern piracy rose to older levels, where entire ships were hijacked, then the pirates would be shut down. Let the Somalis grab a supertanker and see how long they last.