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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 14, 2018 20:13:19 GMT -6
First of all, my idea of having piracy was really just something to stir the pot.... which it did. It got an interesting discussion going. Piracy today is associated with no state or failed states, economic depravity and just lawlessness. Actually, the pirates of old were in the same situation. Most were former prisoners sent by a nation to the Caribbean. Many were supported by France and England. Port Royal was the center for the Pirates and it only went away after an earthquake and a Tsunami. Today and yesterday's pirates are all based on the same reasons. Could the game add this a little to make peace time naval activity different, yes but I can't say that it would. Anyway, nice discussion. I have nothing else to add. I've provided good documents to show piracy still exists. Good discussion.
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Post by Noname117 on Aug 14, 2018 22:00:21 GMT -6
First of all, my idea of having piracy was really just something to stir the pot.... which it did. It got an interesting discussion going. Piracy today is associated with no state or failed states, economic depravity and just lawlessness. Actually, the pirates of old were in the same situation. Most were former prisoners sent by a nation to the Caribbean. Many were supported by France and England. Port Royal was the center for the Pirates and it only went away after an earthquake and a Tsunami. Today and yesterday's pirates are all based on the same reasons. Could the game add this a little to make peace time naval activity different, yes but I can't say that it would. Anyway, nice discussion. I have nothing else to add. I've provided good documents to show piracy still exists. Good discussion. Again, your documents only showed piracy currently exists; it does not show that it existed in any significant way in the time period of RTW2. That is what I'm asking about, and wanting documents for. Piracy from 1900-1950, not piracy from after 1990.
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bubby
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by bubby on Aug 14, 2018 22:14:35 GMT -6
Let the Somalis grab a supertanker and see how long they last. Lol Right?
Who knows maybe it'll turn into an international crisis and Tom Hanks will make a movie about it.
I doubt it, though.
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Post by cv10 on Aug 15, 2018 0:06:05 GMT -6
That is what I'm asking about, and wanting documents for. Piracy from 1900-1950, not piracy from after 1990. And which is well demonstrated as existing in any case (piracy since 1990 that is). As for Piracy from 1900 to 1950, I don't know if this kind of Piracy would be considered significant, but here's what I know: River and coastal piracy was a common form of piracy during the RTW 2 timeline. One of the reasons that foreign warships patrolled Chinese waters (and rivers) was to keep piracy in check and to ensure that foreign shipping did not suffer from the depredations of war lords. Such efforts are generally listed in the Annual Reports of the Navy Department for the Fiscal Year, and for specific documents, see the report for 1923 (which I think is available online through HathiTrust's digital library). The Navy has also condensed the chunks about the China Station into the following work: Yangtze River Patrol and Other US Navy Asiatic Fleet Activities in China 1920-1942There was the Irene Incident in 1927 where a pair of Royal Navy subs attacked a ship that had been taken by river pirates. Though the RN was able to rescue over 200 passengers and crew (most of those aboard), the ship caught fire and capsized. There was also the Alice Dollar Incident, where a large force of Chinese warlord troops (there was a very fine between rebel and pirate that was often crossed) attacked an American steamer of that name, and then attacked her again after the gunboat Monocacy arrived to escort her. The guboat repelled them with machine gun and shell fire. These are just a few select examples (probably written about because they resulted in diplomatic protests)
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Post by Noname117 on Aug 15, 2018 0:34:41 GMT -6
That is what I'm asking about, and wanting documents for. Piracy from 1900-1950, not piracy from after 1990. And which is well demonstrated as existing in any case (piracy since 1990 that is). As for Piracy from 1900 to 1950, I don't know if this kind of Piracy would be considered significant, but here's what I know: River and coastal piracy was a common form of piracy during the RTW 2 timeline. One of the reasons that foreign warships patrolled Chinese waters (and rivers) was to keep piracy in check and to ensure that foreign shipping did not suffer from the depredations of war lords. Such efforts are generally listed in the Annual Reports of the Navy Department for the Fiscal Year, and for specific documents, see the report for 1923 (which I think is available online through HathiTrust's digital library). The Navy has also condensed the chunks about the China Station into the following work: Yangtze River Patrol and Other US Navy Asiatic Fleet Activities in China 1920-1942There was the Irene Incident in 1927 where a pair of Royal Navy subs attacked a ship that had been taken by river pirates. Though the RN was able to rescue over 200 passengers and crew (most of those aboard), the ship caught fire and capsized. There was also the Alice Dollar Incident, where a large force of Chinese warlord troops (there was a very fine between rebel and pirate that was often crossed) attacked an American steamer of that name, and then attacked her again after the gunboat Monocacy arrived to escort her. The guboat repelled them with machine gun and shell fire. These are just a few select examples (probably written about because they resulted in diplomatic protests) Thank you, this was the type of information I was interested in. So piracy over in China did exist at the time, but only really enough to threaten some merchant ships and not really enough to put up a fight against a military vessel. So it's best simulated by foreign tonnage on station then.
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Post by cv10 on Aug 15, 2018 0:56:10 GMT -6
Thank you, this was the type of information I was interested in. So piracy over in China did exist at the time, but only really enough to threaten some merchant ships and not really enough to put up a fight against a military vessel. So it's best simulated by foreign tonnage on station then. No problem! That was generally the case, though I think there were a few isolated cases where the possession of artillery (by rebels/warlord troops rather than ordinary river pirates) did cause some difficulty. Being pirates, they tended to go after merchant vessels and tried to avoid warships if they could help it. By the 1900s, the time when pirates could go up against military vessels with any real chance of winning was over. I also agree with you that foreign tonnage is the best way to deal with it: A. said tonnage can be employed directly to squelch pirates B. said tonnage can "encourage" local authorities to be more proactive in preventing attacks on foreign ships...or else
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Post by tbr on Aug 15, 2018 1:07:19 GMT -6
The major reason piracy is a factor affecting large-scale merchant traffic today is that modern Western society has develeoped sensibilities that affect the rules of engagement for navies. If a large merchant ship owned/flagged by a leading Western nation had been hijacked by Somali pirates in 1905 what would have happened? That nation's navy would have sent an armored cruiser which would have exterminateed the military age male population of one or more Somali coastal villages or towns by a combination of landed marines/infantry and bombardment. There would have been no "collateral damage" because everything would have been intended, including the rape/enslavement of the surving female/young population by the other Somalis after the cruiser had gone. In a sense that kind of attitude by Western nations then is part of the random event types in RTW1.
That is not to say that below-threshold piracy did not happen even then, but that was of locally owned and crewed coastal dhows/sampans etc. which were not liable to motivate a major Western reaction.
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Post by archelaos on Aug 15, 2018 2:10:40 GMT -6
The major reason piracy is a factor affecting large-scale merchant traffic today is that modern Western society has develeoped sensibilities that affect the rules of engagement for navies. If a large merchant ship owned/flagged by a leading Western nation had been hijacked by Somali pirates in 1905 what would have happened? That nation's navy would have sent an armored cruiser which would have exterminateed the military age male population of one or more Somali coastal villages or towns by a combination of landed marines/infantry and bombardment. There would have been no "collateral damage" because everything would have been intended, including the rape/enslavement of the surving female/young population by the other Somalis after the cruiser had gone. In a sense that kind of attitude by Western nations then is part of the random event types in RTW1. That is not to say that below-threshold piracy did not happen even then, but that was of locally owned and crewed coastal dhows/sampans etc. which were not liable to motivate a major Western reaction. When ruler of Ethiopia arrested UK missionary and few other people (7?) UK sent 13 000 strong expedition to extract them...
Besides, as Oldpop mentioned, piracy appears in areas where government is too weak to project power. There were not many regions like this in between 1900-1950 - either colonial governments or local governments strong enough to deter colonisation would make sure trade lines stay safe.
What's more, at this era poor people (like modern Somali pirates) had access to either oar powered or sail powered wooden boats. None of those could catch a merchant steamer. Maybe sailing merchant... but only maybe.
Today easy access to light boats, outboard motors and fuel gave everybody ability to chase merchant ships.
Similarly easy access to machine guns give them ability to attack the ships. In 1900-50 a few revolvers and a rifle or two used from high side of the ship would be enough to deter would be assailants. Not so much if they have AKs and RPGs...
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 15, 2018 9:05:59 GMT -6
The word "Pirate" comes from the Greek Polybius, he used the word Peirates. We've all heard of the "Sea Peoples" who threatened ships sailing in the Aegean and Mediterranean waters in the 14th century BC but there are records going back further. Herodotus relates the story of pirates in his two books about the Trojan War and the long trip home. The word "Viking" means sea raiders. Viking was used to mean "to go a Viking". In the 19th century, Chinese pirates came on scene in the straits of Malacca, Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia. They were eliminated by a joint force of Royal Navy and U.S. Navy in the 1860-1870. Records show that piracy has existed in form another in the world, after the Golden Age of Pirates. The age of Port Royal as a pirate haven ended on June 7th, 1692 when a massive earthquake and tsunami sank much of the port into the water. While this is interesting, we now have our answer to the question about whether piracy will be in the game. We might now want to return to the discussions about what certainly will be in the game, that being carrier and land based air, submarines. Let's all move on. Remember, Big Brother is Watching US,
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Post by kungfutreachery on Aug 15, 2018 13:24:45 GMT -6
I kind of feel like you’re missing my point here. I’m not arguing against piracy existing today; I’m arguing against piracy existing in a significant way in the time period RTW2 is supposed to take place in. The pirates of the age of sail got squashed out in the early to mid 1800s, dying between 1850-1870 from what I’ve seen. The modern pirates got their beginning in the early 1990s with the collapse of Somolia. It’s spread elsewhere since, but it seems like it wasn’t really happening before that. The game takes place from 1900-1950. There really weren’t many pirates in that time period, from what I can find, and the few instances that I’ve come across seem smaller and more isolated than both the pirates of old and the pirates of new. Piracy is both too old and too new (by about 40 years both ways) to fit within the game’s timeline. I’ll change my opinion if you can find articles which state otherwise. Actually I am not, Piracy has existed since the times of the Egyptians, it has ebbed and flowed but it has still existed. It has existed in many different spots including the Indian Ocean, Southeast Asia, china and off Madagascar in the late 19th century. Why did the British have a large fleet of cruiser types? to guard against pirates, not other nations. The Dutch and the French had the same issues in the Far East. There were problems in South America in this time period. It has never gone away. I'm pretty sure the British cruiser fleet of the Edwardian age primarily existed to guard commerce from attack by state actors, not by East Indian sampans. Fighting piracy was the task of river gunboats on the China Station.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 15, 2018 13:58:07 GMT -6
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Post by kungfutreachery on Aug 15, 2018 17:36:29 GMT -6
I do admit a game about commanding a gunboat on the 1930s Yangtze sounds like a pretty good concept
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 15, 2018 18:13:44 GMT -6
I do admit a game about commanding a gunboat on the 1930s Yangtze sounds like a pretty good concept Yeah, I did not want to admit it, but it would be cool. It might be even better to be a warlord in China, and hire Chinese Pirates. Yo Ho Ho and the bottle of Baijiu.
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Post by baggers on Nov 23, 2018 19:03:16 GMT -6
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Post by charybdis on Nov 23, 2018 19:08:13 GMT -6
tbh mutinies like that would be pretty nifty potentially. It could correlate to your stability score, government, and quality of morale on the ship(s). Cramped, old vessels, on a faraway station would have a higher chance for example. Could be a little minor thing to deal with between wars, or a potential disaster during a war.
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