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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 14, 2018 6:04:22 GMT -6
Torpedo bulge (der Torpedowulst) - Early to mid period attempt to protect the underside of a ship from torpedoes. These were essentially external tanks to make an explosive charge detonate away from the hull. They could be filled with water, air or extra fuel. They could also be added in a refit at the expense of hydrodynamics (i.e speed). The Regia Marina developed in the Thirties a protection of its own against torpedoes. They were introduced in the radically modified BBs of the Cavour class around 1935 and included also in the design of the new BBs of the Littorio class. These protections were called "cilindri assorbitori modello Pugliese". Basically the were "internal tanks". They were rather effective against torpedoes and did not reduce significantly the maximum speed. Other innovations of that period: the giroscopic stabilization of the gun carriages of the dual-use "cannoni contraerei" (AA guns) type 90/50 of the refitted BBs Duilio and Doria and of the BBs of the Littorio class. The Regia Marina called MAS its Motor Torpedo Boats. During WW1 the acronym MAS meant "Motoscafo Anti Sommergibile" (antisubmarine motorboat). The poet Gabriele d'Annunzio, after the successes achieved during that war, culminating with the sinking of the new austrian BB Szent István, gave MAS another meaning : "Memento Audere Semper" (remember to always dare). The MAS people were faithful to that motto in WW2. Italian MAS sank the british cruiser HMS Manchester in 1942. The X (tenth) Flottiglia MAS used speedboats to sink the heavy cruiser HMS York and manned torpedoes to cripple the BBs Valiant and Queen Elizabeth in harbour in 1941, to mention the best known actions.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 14, 2018 7:31:50 GMT -6
That's probably a good topic to go over. The definitions of torpedo boats, torpedo boat destroyers and motor torpedo boats. We could do with a quick definition of the torpedo protection system as well. I'm surprised though vonfriedman , that you described the Pugliese system as effective because I've never seen a good word printed about it. Would you mind providing some background for why you disagree?
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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 14, 2018 8:42:20 GMT -6
Not being an expert in naval construction, I relied solely on the following facts. BB Littorio (later: Italia): hit by 3 torpedoes during the Taranto air raid, november 1940; hit by 1 torpedo during Operation Harpoon, june 1942 BB Vittorio Veneto: hit by 1 torpedo the day before the Battle of Matapan, 1941; hit by 1 torpedo in the night of 14.12.1941 BB Duilio: hit by 1 torpedo in the Taranto air raid, november 1940. On the other side, there is the BB Cavour, who sank in shallow water after being hit by 1 torpedo in the Taranto air raid. She was re-floated after about one year, but was put out of action for the remaining part of the war.
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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 14, 2018 10:44:22 GMT -6
If instead the Pugliese anti-torpedo cylinders were not as effective as I thought, it would be a case of "wrong" research, that the rules of RTW2 should foresee.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 14, 2018 10:47:21 GMT -6
For those quick definitions, you could have:
Torpedo Boat - Fast inshore small ship armed with torpedoes and designed to attack capital ships Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Originally a small escort ship built to defend against torpedo boats. Quite fast, armed with guns and torpedoes themselves and, over time, became fleet ships in their own right Motor Torpedo Boat - The natural progression from the early torpedo boat. Did the same job as a torpedo boat but is faster and can evade destroyers. They were the first ships to be fitted with gas turbines and could do up to 50knts
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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 14, 2018 14:52:11 GMT -6
Early MAS were not particularly fast. The St. Istvan was sunk by boats having a maximum speed of about 21 knots.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 14, 2018 16:18:41 GMT -6
Compared to capital ships of the day, they were fast. The torpedo boat HMS Lightning could do 18.5 knts in 1876. HMS Dreadnought (1875, not the Dreadnought) could only do 14knts, and she'd have blown her boilers maintaining that for more than 5 minutes. In 1900, the final "torpedo boat" class ordered by Britain was the 160 Footer-Class. They had 3 trainable torpedo tubes and could maintain 25knts for up to 6 hours. The average speed of a battleship was 18knts. Fast.
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Post by thaseus on Dec 14, 2018 16:39:06 GMT -6
Like many words, there's no direct perfect translation for most things like this. Whereas the English and French make their own words up for new things, the Germans always have been happy with whatever means the same thing. This allows for many synonyms and words with double meanings. "Mehrzweckkanone" (More purpose cannon) can also refer to a land-based anti-tank gun (which can fire at tanks or function as battalion artillery, hence the "more purpose". Here, however, we are searching for a word for a main mount naval gun that could also function in an AA role. The nearest historical example is the word "Schnellladekanone". It's not perfect but neither is the SK-QF point as many later QF guns were put in as DP main mounts as well. Schnellladekanone, abbreviated SK, is solely referring to quick-firing guns and has nothing to do with Dual-purpose mounts. It was the common german designation for any naval artillery e.g. Bismarck's 38 cm SK C/34 naval gun which wasn't capable of serving a DP role. The correct term for DP guns is Mehrzweckgeschütz, a peculiarity of german is that any time something services more than one role it is called mehrzweck(multipurpose) no matter the amount of roles. As for QF guns used in DP mounts, that would make it a Schnellladekanone used as a Mehrzweckgeschütz.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 14, 2018 17:07:33 GMT -6
Like many words, there's no direct perfect translation for most things like this. Whereas the English and French make their own words up for new things, the Germans always have been happy with whatever means the same thing. This allows for many synonyms and words with double meanings. "Mehrzweckkanone" (More purpose cannon) can also refer to a land-based anti-tank gun (which can fire at tanks or function as battalion artillery, hence the "more purpose". Here, however, we are searching for a word for a main mount naval gun that could also function in an AA role. The nearest historical example is the word "Schnellladekanone". It's not perfect but neither is the SK-QF point as many later QF guns were put in as DP main mounts as well. Schnellladekanone, abbreviated SK, is solely referring to quick-firing guns and has nothing to do with Dual-purpose mounts. It was the common german designation for any naval artillery e.g. Bismarck's 38 cm SK C/34 naval gun which wasn't capable of serving a DP role. The correct term for DP guns is Mehrzweckgeschütz, a peculiarity of german is that any time something services more than one role it is called mehrzweck(multipurpose) no matter the amount of roles. As for QF guns used in DP mounts, that would make it a Schnellladekanone used as a Mehrzweckgeschütz. I shall bow to your superior knowledge then (presumably a German speaker?). My research was based on trawling wikipedia.de so I can understand if I got the wrong end of the stick.
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Post by aeson on Dec 14, 2018 17:15:08 GMT -6
Compared to capital ships of the day, they were fast. The torpedo boat HMS Lightning could do 18.5 knts in 1876. HMS Dreadnought (1875, not the Dreadnought) could only do 14knts, and she'd have blown her boilers maintaining that for more than 5 minutes. In 1900, the final "torpedo boat" class ordered by Britain was the 160 Footer-Class. They had 3 trainable torpedo tubes and could maintain 25knts for up to 6 hours. The average speed of a battleship was 18knts. Fast. If this is accurate, then twenty of the Italian Motoscofo Armato Silurante (MAS), or torpedo-armed motor boats, built during the First World War - including the one which sank the Austro-Hungarian Tegetthoff-class dreadnought battleship Szent Istvan - were only capable of 21 knots, which was about average for the battleships of the period, very slow by comparison to the battlecruisers of the period, and only slightly faster than the contemporary 20kn Austro-Hungarian Tegetthoff-class dreadnought battleships.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Dec 14, 2018 18:27:12 GMT -6
Hence why the motor torpedo boats came along. The original torpedo boats were faster than anything else (predreadnoughts) but fast torpedo boat destroyers began to outpace them, as did the capital ships they were built to attack. The concept turned into the very fast coastal motor torpedo boat of WW2.
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Post by aeson on Dec 14, 2018 19:01:38 GMT -6
Hence why the motor torpedo boats came along. The original torpedo boats were faster than anything else (predreadnoughts) but fast torpedo boat destroyers began to outpace them, as did the capital ships they were built to attack. The concept turned into the very fast coastal motor torpedo boat of WW2. The First World War Italian MAS are motor torpedo boats.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 15, 2018 1:34:35 GMT -6
Yep, that's an important distinction to make. The original torpedo boats were steam powered and designed to be cheap enough they could be used in numbers to overwhelm large expensive ironclads armed with slower firing guns. Their small size made them suitable only for coastal and defensive purposes because they weren't really seaworthy. The first torpedo boat destroyers were introduced about a decade later and were essentially torpedo boats that included a number of quick firing guns to protect the ironclads from torpedo boats. They evolved to be larger and more seaworthy so they could accompany the ironclads and be used offensively and so replaced torpedo boats in larger navies. Both Russia and Japan used both types in their 1905 war to some minor success. As torpedo boats disappear their counterparts are simply renamed destroyers.
Motor torpedo boats aren't really descended from torpedo boats but they have the same role initially. They were introduced before WW1 and were quite small. The distinguishing characteristic is the use of a gas or diesel engine instead of steam. They were smaller for the most part than the original torpedo boats. Some, like the US PT boats of WW2, used planing hulls but early versions and later, larger versions like the German S-Boots (E-Boats to the English) used displacement hulls. Aircraft and radar made their use against modern fleets difficult but the type is still used by nations like Norway and China.
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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 15, 2018 4:46:24 GMT -6
Italian MAS of WW2 were very fast, but the slower and more seaworthy "motosiluranti", derived form a German design, proved to be much more effective. Some were acquired as war prey from the Jugoslavian Navy.
This is an interesting point for both RTW and RTW2: that of war prey.
For example, several former German and former Austrian cruisers were used by Allied navies after WW1.
I do not remember if the rules of RTW provide something like this.
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Post by aeson on Dec 15, 2018 6:16:14 GMT -6
I do not remember if the rules of RTW provide something like this. If you collapse an enemy government, you can sometimes claim a ship as a war prize, adding it to your fleet. Whether or not you'll want to keep it in service is another question.
If you lose a war by governmental collapse, the computer can take a number of your ships, and the power which claimed them will use them for at least a little while.
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