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Post by ramjb on May 19, 2019 12:32:32 GMT -6
I mean they're... ahem. Ludicrous? XDDDDD. I'm just out of a battle where I was launching wave after wave of planes to a couple of hopeless soviet BBs (not complaining, they had 16 and 15 inch guns against my two 14 and 12 inch battlecruisers  ). Carriers were around 40nm off the main action and to me it looked like each time a strike came back and landed I could almost immediately send it off again. I don't doubt that on an emergency pilots would be more than able to get on board their planes as soon as they had been landed...but those planes had to be struck down to the hangar, refuelled and, more importantly, rearmed. That could take a good couple of hours in a fleet carrier of the 40s...I was sending 1929 stringbags off again with a torpedo underslung in mere minutes...from a couple baby CVLs with room for 24 planes each xD. Now kidding aside, plane turnaround is a bit over the top...maybe it should take a little bit more of time to get them aloft again after they return from a strike  |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 19, 2019 13:12:47 GMT -6
I mean they're... ahem. Ludicrous? XDDDDD. I'm just out of a battle where I was launching wave after wave of planes to a couple of hopeless soviet BBs (not complaining, they had 16 and 15 inch guns against my two 14 and 12 inch battlecruisers ). Carriers were around 40nm off the main action and to me it looked like each time a strike came back and landed I could almost immediately send it off again. I don't doubt that on an emergency pilots would be more than able to get on board their planes as soon as they had been landed...but those planes had to be struck down to the hangar, refuelled and, more importantly, rearmed. That could take a good couple of hours in a fleet carrier of the 40s...I was sending 1929 stringbags off again with a torpedo underslung in mere minutes...from a couple baby CVLs with room for 24 planes each xD. Now kidding aside, plane turnaround is a bit over the top...maybe it should take a little bit more of time to get them aloft again after they return from a strike Air wing turnaround time would depend on how fast you could recover an aircraft, move it forward and then refuel and rearm. Each landing should take about 2 minutes or less and a prepared deck strike should be about 10-20 seconds per bird. It might take about 48 minutes to recover a full 24 plane strike but each plane will be refueled and rearmed immediately unless there is damage. You could theoretically recover and be ready to launch in one hour at best depending on the size of the strike that was sent out. |
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Post by ramjb on May 19, 2019 13:22:46 GMT -6
Rearming as far as I know wasn't done in the deck. Was done in the hangar. Having a load of torpedoes or bombs stored next to your island wasn't the most healthy proposition in the middle of an ongoing battle , and it was far easier (And safer) to strike down the planes into the hangar and have them reloaded there than getting the high explosives up onto the open air . One hour looks pretty decent for a big fleet carrier recovering and re-launching a not that massive strike...but a CVL turning around 8 planes ASAP its a tad overkill . Maybe I should give a little more detail here. The CVL I was using had a top capability of 24 planes and a spotting of 12 (I could launch 12 tops at the same time). My squadron composition is of two squadrons of 8 TBs each, one of 8 fighters. There was no air opposition in the area that I expected so I didn't bother with the fighters, and I sent the first strike of my whole 1st squadron, 8 planes as soon as I knew where to send it, then as soon as planes were on the way, sent the 2nd one of the other 8. I was quite staggered when the first strike came back, landed and I was immediately able to rearm and send them flying again...instantly. Or looked like instantly to me. when the 2nd strike came back...again did the same... the CVL being only 30-40nm off the action, trip times were at a minimum. The result was that the whole battle the russian BBs were fighting my BCs while a constant stream of TBs were making their day a miserable one . I didn't really measure the time it took since a plane landed and launched again as I was pretty distracted by trying to keep a couple BCs from blowing up under 16'' gunfire XDDD... but I might have to do it next time, certainly for me it looked that as soon as they were recovered...they could be sent back instantly, fully rearmed and refuelled, if they didn't come back damaged. And if that's the case that's not quite right . Maybe I just got the wrong impression and there's a sizeable turnaround time, but it didn't look like it to me... |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 19, 2019 13:35:13 GMT -6
Rearming as far as I know wasn't done in the deck. Was done in the hangar. Having a load of torpedoes or bombs stored next to your island wasn't the most healthy proposition in the middle of an ongoing battle , and it was far easier (And safer) to strike down the planes into the hangar and have them reloaded there than getting the high explosives up onto the open air . One hour looks pretty decent for a big fleet carrier recovering and re-launching a not that massive strike...but a CVL turning around 8 planes ASAP its a tad overkill . Maybe I should give a little more detail here. The CVL I was using had a top capability of 24 planes and a spotting of 12 (I could launch 12 tops at the same time). My squadron composition is of two squadrons of 8 TBs each, one of 8 fighters. There was no air opposition in the area that I expected so I didn't bother with the fighters, and I sent the first strike of my whole 1st squadron, 8 planes as soon as I knew where to send it, then as soon as planes were on the way, sent the 2nd one of the other 8. I was quite staggered when the first strike came back, landed and I was immediately able to rearm and send them flying again...instantly. Or looked like instantly to me. when the 2nd strike came back...again did the same... the CVL being only 30-40nm off the action, trip times were at a minimum. The result was that the whole battle the russian BBs were fighting my BCs while a constant stream of TBs were making their day a miserable one . I didn't really measure the time it took since a plane landed and launched again as I was pretty distracted by trying to keep a couple BCs from blowing up under 16'' gunfire XDDD... but I might have to do it next time, certainly for me it looked that as soon as they were recovered...they could be sent back instantly, fully rearmed and refuelled, if they didn't come back damaged. And if that's the case that's not quite right . Maybe I just got the wrong impression and there's a sizeable turnaround time, but it didn't look like it to me... On US carriers, torpedoes, bombs and ammunition for guns along with refueling was done on the deck. If the air wing was in the hangar then it would be armed in the hangar. A strike that was recovered and going to be rearmed and launched would have all necessary reloads and refueling done on the deck. It will take about an hour. Generally though, depending on how many carriers were in the task force, one ship might launch a strike, the other will have its strike in the hangar ready to launch but be launching and recovering combat air patrols and inner patrols. So, in a two carrier force, one carrier can be the day carrier meaning it will be sending out the CAP and inner patrols but have a strike ready to launch. Now as you develop more carriers with more aircraft, that whole doctrine might change. |
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Post by ramjb on May 19, 2019 13:45:01 GMT -6
Hmpf...I thought one of the advantages of the open side hangars in US carriers is that it allowed for planes to be struck down with engines still running and be rearmed, refuelled, and popped up again ASAP?. Maybe I twisted how I remember things a bit, been a loooong while since I last read any book about that topic, but if it's how you describe, I stand corrected from the historical side . as for the in-game...certainly didn't look an hour of downtime to me, but I didn't really check either so I'll keep my eyes peeled next battle to measure it properly . |
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Post by L0ckAndL0ad on May 19, 2019 13:47:02 GMT -6
Based on my experience with the demo, yeah, I highly agree. Carrier on-board ops are too quick, seemingly almost instant. Though I dealt only with small ~25 a/c CVLs and dunno how it scales later.
Unlimited torpedo armament is also a concern, btw. Torpedoes were quite pricey IRL. I haven't seen any good sources for such info and can only remember my WITP AE experience, having unlimited torpedoes is kind of OP.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 19, 2019 13:51:40 GMT -6
Hmpf...I thought one of the advantages of the open side hangars in US carriers is that it allowed for planes to be struck down with engines still running and be rearmed, refuelled, and popped up again ASAP?. Maybe I twisted how I remember things a bit, been a loooong while since I last read any book about that topic, but if it's how you describe, I stand corrected from the historical side . as for the in-game...certainly didn't look an hour of downtime to me, but I didn't really check either so I'll keep my eyes peeled next battle to measure it properly . The open hangars served a few purposes. One was to allow for the engines to be warmed up in the hangar before elevating them to the deck. Radial engines need about fifteen minutes to 20 to warm-up. With the open hangar, this can be done in the hangar if needed. It can also help during engine testing because now you don't have to bring the bird up to the deck to test the engine. The open hangar also served to allow other ships to spray water into the hangar during fires in the hangar. It also allowed the crew to eject bombs and torpedoes over the side during those fires. It also served to maintain some fresh air in the hangar and with hangar doors closed it could be kept warmer. To my knowledge, you never bring an aircraft up to the deck with the engine running. It might have been done once in a while, but it was not standard practice. I am glad to help. www.armouredcarriers.com/opensided-versus-closed-hangars-in-aircraft-carriers |
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bakara
Junior Member
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Post by bakara on May 19, 2019 14:04:30 GMT -6
Havent been paying super clsoe attention to how long my strikes (between 12 and 36 aircraft) from fleet carriers (60-90 aircraft) take to ready and launch but I think the arming and fueling takes about 20 min and then spotting about 15 and launching takes 10-15 and recovery I dont know except its below 30 min. And its pretty much always this time frame (CVL or CV, 1920s or 1940s). And i gotta agree this feels way too quick
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 19, 2019 14:18:25 GMT -6
Typical example of 1940 era carriers would be the Yorktown's and Essex. It would take 13 seconds to raise the elevator, 10 seconds to move the plane on to the elevator, 12 seconds down and another 10 seconds to move the plane off. With more experienced crews that time of 45 second could be reduced. Some older carriers might have slower elevators but other carriers might have faster elevators but only two not three.
For carriers with large airwings, there might not be enough deck space to launch without catapults and the cycle time for them was about 45-60 seconds.
Generally, a deck-load strike consisted of half of the planes in the air wing. One strike would be on the deck, the second in the hangar. With over 90-100 aircraft, you would have to break up the air wing into three strikes or two strikes and one CAP/inner patrol. Minimum time for a strike was 30 minutes but as I said, generally it took about one hour.
The time to reload an aircraft depended on whether you were loading bombs or torpedoes. If you were converting from torpedoes to bombs then the torpedo rack had to be unscrewed and removed and the bomb racks installed.
Keep in mind that there is a difference between launching strikes and maintaining patrols. Is the aircraft carrier on defensive or offensive? It makes a difference.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 19, 2019 15:22:17 GMT -6
Just some thought for you and I can't guarantee the game will represent this. Carriers, as opposed to battleships, fire pulses of power, not salvos. Statistically, the side that finds the enemy first, launches first and with the biggest pulse of power will win most of the time. This is confirmed by a statistical analysis of Pacific War carrier battles. So, good scouting, rapid launches and recoveries will be successful most of the time. Initially, aircraft will have shorter ranges and this means no loiter times. You launch and you head to the target. It might mean that coordinating a strike could be difficult but if the strike is directed to one target, all should be ok, but no guarantees.
The two most important components of a carrier battle are A. Scouting effectivess and B. Net combat power. The latter is simply based on how many carriers you can send against the enemy versus how many he can send. It is also controlled by the number of aircraft each carrier can field. At Midway, the Japanese fielded four carriers while we could only field three but our air wings were bigger and we had an unsinkable carrier in Midway Island. It all adds up.
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 19, 2019 16:21:33 GMT -6
keep in mind on normal speed this game is essentially on super fast-forward compared to real time - if battles were real-time they'd be painfully long
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Post by aetreus on May 19, 2019 17:15:56 GMT -6
Based on my experience with the demo, yeah, I highly agree. Carrier on-board ops are too quick, seemingly almost instant. Though I dealt only with small ~25 a/c CVLs and dunno how it scales later. Unlimited torpedo armament is also a concern, btw. Torpedoes were quite pricey IRL. I haven't seen any good sources for such info and can only remember my WITP AE experience, having unlimited torpedoes is kind of OP. Historical carriers generally did not carry more than 2, maybe 3 strikes worth of torpedo ammunition. They usually had more bomb ammunition but not that much more. For instance the Essex class specifications call for space for 36 torpedoes, along with 148 1000lbs, 450 500lbs, and 522 100lbs bombs. In terms of time to sortie aircraft, the Midway AAR's support about 1-2 hours for a carrier to prepare its wing and begin launching them. Enterprise and Hornet began launching their strikes at 0900 after receiving reports of IJN carriers from 0800-0810. Yorktown recovered its scouting flight at 0830 and launched its strike from 1030 to 1050. |
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Post by tbr on May 19, 2019 18:06:48 GMT -6
I just had a tremendous battle against a US invasion attempt of Saipan in 1924. One semi-obsolte 2nd generation BC (1908 10x12in) against about 12 BB's mixed between 2nd generation dreadnought to just completed, with most at 14+ inch main armament. But I also hat a 40size airbase and 4 new 34 plane CVL's...
It sure felt like my CVL's did constand revolving strikes, but the battle went on more than 1400 turns from night to night and all with good weather. That written, those were about 4 strikes from the carriers with 18-26 TB's in each strike per carrier (damage and losses accumulated) over a full day close to the equator, so torpedo expenditure was way less than 4 per TB. I do not think the effort to do plane ordnance tracking in the carrier magazines is worth it in game terms. Turnaround time was around 40-45 min. Overall I do not think rearming ("spotting") is too fast, if anything is too fast it is the landing cycle.
The reason I can only estimate enemy numbers and stats is because I had an error in battle report procedure, it did not show. I really would have liked to post that results scree, a truly epic battle. And in the turn before the Russian Baltic Fleet, reinforced by the two most modern US BB's, was annihilated in the Baltic with massive airstrikes, but with no more than 3 full "cycle-strikes" per carrier...
Also keep in mind that CVL's should have a faster turnaround time than CV's. They can land as many planes at the same time as CV's but need to do so for far less of them.
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Post by christian on May 20, 2019 0:53:41 GMT -6
Rearming as far as I know wasn't done in the deck. Was done in the hangar. Having a load of torpedoes or bombs stored next to your island wasn't the most healthy proposition in the middle of an ongoing battle , and it was far easier (And safer) to strike down the planes into the hangar and have them reloaded there than getting the high explosives up onto the open air . One hour looks pretty decent for a big fleet carrier recovering and re-launching a not that massive strike...but a CVL turning around 8 planes ASAP its a tad overkill . Maybe I should give a little more detail here. The CVL I was using had a top capability of 24 planes and a spotting of 12 (I could launch 12 tops at the same time). My squadron composition is of two squadrons of 8 TBs each, one of 8 fighters. There was no air opposition in the area that I expected so I didn't bother with the fighters, and I sent the first strike of my whole 1st squadron, 8 planes as soon as I knew where to send it, then as soon as planes were on the way, sent the 2nd one of the other 8. I was quite staggered when the first strike came back, landed and I was immediately able to rearm and send them flying again...instantly. Or looked like instantly to me. when the 2nd strike came back...again did the same... the CVL being only 30-40nm off the action, trip times were at a minimum. The result was that the whole battle the russian BBs were fighting my BCs while a constant stream of TBs were making their day a miserable one . I didn't really measure the time it took since a plane landed and launched again as I was pretty distracted by trying to keep a couple BCs from blowing up under 16'' gunfire XDDD... but I might have to do it next time, certainly for me it looked that as soon as they were recovered...they could be sent back instantly, fully rearmed and refuelled, if they didn't come back damaged. And if that's the case that's not quite right . Maybe I just got the wrong impression and there's a sizeable turnaround time, but it didn't look like it to me... generally it was the exact opposite NOBODY loaded torpedoes and bombs in the hangar because if an explosion goes off inside the hangar from a torpedo or bomb the INTIRE airwing is done the elevator is jammed or destroyed and the intire hangar is gone and probably on fire if an explosion happends on deck you might loose 2 or 3 planes have a sizable hole in deck and a fire which is easy to deal with because its not inside the ship so your crew dosent die from fumes for example when the 4 japanese carriers where hit by bombs and sunk they were all refueling fighters and loading torpedoes into their strike planes as such the fuel lines caught fire and burned the decks and helped sink the carriers while it does increase the risk its not as catastrophic as an in hangar explosion 12 plane spotting should be about at most 40 minutes and at short 30 minutes or less |
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Post by ramjb on May 20, 2019 3:38:19 GMT -6
Seems I somehow got it completely upside down then. Surprising (I tend to have a decent memory XD) but hey, it's nice to know how it was really done . Thanks for the corrections!. |
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). Carriers were around 40nm off the main action and to me it looked like each time a strike came back and landed I could almost immediately send it off again.
