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Post by noshurviverse on Jun 5, 2019 16:20:44 GMT -6
Not showing is the top of the turret armor. Likely if it is 3" armor front face probably was set to 1". Actualy armor value is not seen by the player as it combines the thickness with the math based on the technology available at the time the armor was installed. (i.e. not your current armor tech if the ship is 5 years old) The Prinz Eugen had a TT value of 2", but what I was more pointing out was a 500lb bomb penetrating 4" of deck armor. Here's the design sheet for her, the only real adjustment being an inch of CT armor being exchanged for a 3" AA gun.
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Post by brygun on Jun 5, 2019 16:54:00 GMT -6
Reference for bomb vs deck armor performance
Information available on bombs versus armor comes from pg 141 of:
U.S. Aircraft Carriers An Illustrated Design History - Norman Friedman - Google Books.htm
• 500-lb pound dropped from 10,000 ft will be rejected by 1.9-in STS • A 1,000-lb heavy case bomb dropped from 10,500 feet breaks up on 2.5-in STS; the same bomb dropped from 10,000 feet will just be rejected by 2.4-in STS. However, a 1,000-lb AP bomb (18 percent rather than 50 percent explosive) will penetrate 2.88 inches of STS. • 2,000-lb bomb dropped from 10,000 feet breaks on3-in STS; from 9,000 feet, it pierces 2.9 inches
Conversions: 2 inches ~ 50.8 mm 2.5 inches ~ 63.5 mm 3 inches ~ 76.2 mm
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Post by abclark on Jun 5, 2019 19:17:13 GMT -6
Notice that it was a "hull" hit. From other hull hits that I've seen on AON ships I'm pretty sure that means it's outside the citadel and thus not armored. Do you remember if it did any significant damage?
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Post by noshurviverse on Jun 5, 2019 20:19:43 GMT -6
Notice that it was a "hull" hit. From other hull hits that I've seen on AON ships I'm pretty sure that means it's outside the citadel and thus not armored. Do you remember if it did any significant damage? But it also says it hit the Deck armor, with a penetration mark. So how does that work out? I've seen alot of strange hits like that, such as rounds on a sloped deck ship penetrating both the belt and deck (makes sense), but then hitting the superstructure.
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Post by dorn on Jun 6, 2019 3:22:12 GMT -6
This is calculation for Illustrious design for different bomb penetration potentional.
So 500 lb bomb (not AP) is very unlikely to penetrate 4" of armour - quite strange.
My experience is that against 1400lb AP bomb 5" of armour is usually enough to defeat bomb.
Penetration potential bomb is quite complicated. It depends on release high, speed of aicrafts, angle of impact, type of bomb etc.
Another question is how game simulates these attack and all these variables.
For example during operation of British Pacific Fleet one of kamikaze strike flight deck and one of fragment pierced to machinery temporary decresing speed of ship. It means that the fragments needed to penetrate not only armoured deck but protection of citadel (there is no mention how, but hangar floor is additional 3" armour plate) so it can be seen that small fragments could have power to penetrate much thicker armour even if bomb is unable to do it.
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Post by rodentnavy on Jun 6, 2019 3:30:50 GMT -6
This is calculation for Illustrious design for different bomb penetration potentional.
So 500 lb bomb (not AP) is very unlikely to penetrate 4" of armour - quite strange.
My experience is that against 1400lb AP bomb 5" of armour is usually enough to defeat bomb.
Penetration potential bomb is quite complicated. It depends on release high, speed of aicrafts, angle of impact, type of bomb etc.
Another question is how game simulates these attack and all these variables.
Those variables matter and it is probable that the game assumes pilots follow the same instincts as real ones and dive in too low in order to increase the chance of a hit. Thus a significantly heavier bomb than the theoretical minimum would be required to penetrate a given armoured deck.
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Post by cogsandspigots on Jun 6, 2019 8:52:40 GMT -6
Im not sure what RTW2 uses IIRC I once saw a study that rated something like 2" stops 500 lb bombs, 2.5" vs 1000 lb bombs but 2.88" wouldnt stop 1000 lb AP But... and some planes get 1,500, 1,600 and 2,000 lb bombs. So at least 2" deck/flight deck armor for light bombs and 3" or more for heavy bombs. Bomb penetration seems a bit excessive in RtW2, although this may be supposed to simulate "lucky" hits that somehow hit a weak point. Not sure, might be worth looking into. Year was either very late 50's or 60's. I first read that as “Short Manlet”
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Post by deeznuts on Jun 6, 2019 13:19:41 GMT -6
Air dropped bombs get better penetration and damage later in the game so you gotta factor that in(plus of course armour quality should affect it), I know the 7 Inches of deck armour on my Battleships stops 1400 Ib bombs most of the time.
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Post by platypusoffail on Jun 6, 2019 22:58:35 GMT -6
I have had a fair deal of success using only 2 inches of deck armor and no flight deck on my carriers. The ships are obviously much more vulnerable but they are so much cheaper. I could argue that the increased CAP presence from more carriers offsets the difference. I played out a full game with this approach without losing any carriers to airstrikes. Lategame bombs have so much pen it is prohibitively expensive to armor against them. That said between the amount of AA you can throw on your ships and the AI's love of unescorted strikes the dive bombers should rarely hit.
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Post by dorn on Jun 7, 2019 1:04:05 GMT -6
My best experience is with carriers with no armour and maximum torpedo protection.
One of my carriers has only 26k tons tonnage with 84 airplanes and she ate 5 torpedoes and some bombs and was still afloat. Right now it seems to me that armour is just not worth the costs as similar carrier with good protection against bomb would be twice as large. And she was quite cheap - 70M.
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Post by victormagnus on Jun 7, 2019 15:48:57 GMT -6
Ditto to what Dorn said. My experience in the game thus-far (including a *lot* of late-game campaigning in the airstrike Hell that is the Mediterranean) it's much, much more useful to have more CAP than more armor on one's CVs. I build as many as I can of the smallest, cheapest 30-knot, 100-a/c CVs that I can squeeze out of the budget. If your CV is caught with a weak CAP, then all the deck armoring in the world won't save her against a sustained air bombardment, and even TP-IV can't stop several dozen torpedo hits from sending that expensive armored CV to the bottom.
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Post by dorn on Jun 7, 2019 16:03:24 GMT -6
Ditto to what Dorn said. My experience in the game thus-far (including a *lot* of late-game campaigning in the airstrike Hell that is the Mediterranean) it's much, much more useful to have more CAP than more armor on one's CVs. I build as many as I can of the smallest, cheapest 30-knot, 100-a/c CVs that I can squeeze out of the budget. If your CV is caught with a weak CAP, then all the deck armoring in the world won't save her against a sustained air bombardment, and even TP-IV can't stop several dozen torpedo hits from sending that expensive armored CV to the bottom. The main reason is that a lot of aircrafts attack different targets and what remain to attack main carrier force is so small that CAP can usually handle it easily. If this is corrected it could be different. But so far most dangerous are torpedo bombers and bomb pierced to much deck armour quite reliable.
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