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Post by vonfriedman on May 28, 2019 1:12:27 GMT -6
I agree. I hope to be able to write an AAR sooner or later. In spite of everything, I would keep the ships of the 2nd Battlecruiser Squadron in Malta. I would rely on their speed to avoid trouble, even if the Goeben is a difficult customer for them. In this way I would compel the Italians to heavily escort their convoys to Libya and then to consume precious coal.
In August 1942 the Italian battleships were almost out of fuel and also for this reason - as well as for a shameful conduct of the Italian supreme command - the Pedestal convoy could arrive, although decimated, in Malta.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 28, 2019 8:50:06 GMT -6
I agree. I hope to be able to write an AAR sooner or later. In spite of everything, I would keep the ships of the 2nd Battlecruiser Squadron in Malta. I would rely on their speed to avoid trouble, even if the Goeben is a difficult customer for them. In this way I would compel the Italians to heavily escort their convoys to Libya and then to consume precious coal. In August 1942 the Italian battleships were almost out of fuel and also for this reason - as well as for a shameful conduct of the Italian supreme command - the Pedestal convoy could arrive, although decimated, in Malta. If the Italians are proceeding as they did in real life, then the majority of their convoys would leave Naples through the Tyrrhenian Sea to Bizerte, Tunis and Tripoli. Tripoli had the capacity of around 1500 tons per day. It could unload about five cargo ships or for troop ships per day. Bengazi had rate of 2700 tons/day with Bizerte having a rate of 1500 tons. Convoys for Tripoli would have to leave either from Taranto or Naples, from Naples they would pass through the narrows between Sicily and Cape Bon where Tunis is located and then down to Tripoli. With British ships, no matter which ones were home ported in Malta, the last one is very dangerous. It would be easier to move the supplies to the Bizerte and Tunis, then send them by land to Tripoli. I believe that there was a rail line from those two ports to Tripoli but only a single road from Tripoli eastward. The other routes would be from the Naples and Taranto to Benghazi and Tobruck. Again, these last two put their convoys in reach of Malta and Alexandria. Take your pick. If you are developing a campaign in WW1, then the Italian ships probably would use coal and if she is part of the Alliance, she can get that from Germany or A-H very easily.
Just my thoughts, of course.
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Post by vonfriedman on May 29, 2019 10:02:53 GMT -6
A few more thoughts on this topic. An important initial goal for Triple Alliance was to prevent the transport of the army of Africa to France. In the reality the bulk of these troops arrived in time to participate in the decisive battle of the Marne. For the purposes of our counterfactual history it can be assumed that transport of those troops begins from the fourth day of mobilization and continues intensely for about ten days as in the reality. According to the war plans, the Triple Alliance battleship fleets would have operated from the bases of Messina and Augusta in eastern Sicily, or about 600 nautical miles away from Algiers. The ships of the Triple Alliance had a limited range. For example, the escort of the Austrian battleships would have been composed by Tatra class destroyers, that had a range of 1600 miles at 12 knots (the Huszar-class DDs had even shorter legs). This would have allowed the united Triple Alliance fleet only to make some sort of "tip and run" raids in the western Mediterranean, starting from their sicilian base. Probably, due to coaling and repair needs, it would have been barely possible to repeat a raid as soon as a week later. So a naval blockade of the coasts of the French North Africa would not have been possible - provided that the French fleet had allowed this. Things would have been easier sailing from the naval base of La Maddalena, in northern Sardinia, which is about 400 miles from Alger and quite near to the course of any French troopships convoy bound to Marseille. However, it would have been difficult for the Triple Alliance to arrange in advance all the necessary logistics in order to operate from this base with the united fleets of Italy and Austria-Hungary, with the addition of the German BC Goeben (in fact, only the contribution of A-H light forces was foreseen in the pre war agreements). The base of Cagliari in south Sardinia is to be excluded, since battleships like Cavour or Tegetthoff would have to anchor offshore.
Questions: Is it likely that the joint fleets of the Triple Alliance would have sailed repeatedly towards the western Mediterranean in the early days of the war? And how would have the French reacted? Looking for the decisive battle or simply temporarily suspending any troopship departure? It seems to me quite obvious that the Triple Alliance would have in any case tried to systematically interfere with the troopships convoys, by operating, especially at night, with light forces sailing from La Maddalena.
In all these events, the three British Invincible-class battlecruisers of the 2nd BCSqn would have made a minor contribution, if sailing from their distant base of Malta. (In the reality, in the confusion of the first days of WW1, the British BCs also received an order to move to Gibraltar, in order to prevent the passage of Goeben into the Atlantic.)
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 29, 2019 11:37:48 GMT -6
My first question is which Africans and how many actually were transported to fight in France. The answer is about 450,000 men. They were from West Africa, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Madagascar and Somalia. Those troops did not have to be transported across the Mediterranean. The troops from Somalia and Madagascar could have just boarded ships, and sailed around the Cape of Good Hope, up the coast of Africa to France. The other troops could have sailed the coast of North Africa through the Straits of Gibraltar and up to Bordeaux or Brest or both. There was no need to sail across the Mediterranean. The West Africa troops could have even marched to the Tangiers, Rabat or Casablanca, boarded transports and sailed to France. Italy could never have stopped them with the French Fleet in Toulon and the British forces in Gibraltar.
The answer to your question is very simple; the joint fleets of the Triple Alliance would have had to sail past the French and British fleets in the Western Mediterranean Sea through Gibraltar to get at the troop transport convoys. I don't foresee them even making the attempt, it is too dangerous. The troop transports would have been boarded, sailed and made it almost France before the Joint fleets could even get close. That depends on where they were sailing from. For the Italians, that means Naples, Taranto and possibly Palermo. They might also sail from Tunis or Bizerte or Tripoli. Either way, they have a daunting task ahead of them. From Bordeaux to Casablanca is about 1085 nautical miles. At 10 knots for the convoy, that is about five days. So the Joint Fleet of the Alliance has to sail to the Western Mediterranean, possibly fight at least one or two naval battles to get through the Straits of Gibraltar and then find the convoys. Do you think they could do that in 5 days? Without aircraft for spotting or radar, I don't. The only troops that might have been in position to be intercepted were the forces from Madagascar and Somalia. I suspect, if the Alliance naval forces sailed, Entente forces would have been alerted and the East African convoy might have just headed into a West African port and parked it.
The Entente military leaders will probably try to take the safest route to France and if Italy is in the Alliance, then moving the soldiers to the west coast of Africa is the safest and easiest. It only makes sense.
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Post by vonfriedman on May 30, 2019 1:11:08 GMT -6
In asking my question I did not consider the troops that during the WW1 were brought to France from Senegal etc. but only the trained troops, mostly white, which formed the XIX army corps and which in the reality were transferred from North Africa to France within ten days, arriving just in time to participate in the decisive battle of the Marne. For the Triple Alliance fleet it would have been completely out of the question to operate in the Atlantic, with ships designed for war in the Adriatic and without any naval base further west of Sardinia. I even doubt that they would have been able to send some merchant raiders over the Strait of Gibraltar. If I remember correctly in both WWs only the submarines managed to do it.
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Post by vonfriedman on May 30, 2019 7:13:08 GMT -6
The [North] Africa troops could have even marched to [Bona, Algiers and Oran] , boarded transports and sailed to France. Italy could never have stopped them with the French Fleet in Toulon and the British forces in Gibraltar. Let us suppose that the Triple Alliance kept an eye open on the embarkation ports by means of spies, submarines and false fishing boats. To reach Marseille (400 nm) the French convoy would have to sail about three days. The Triple Alliance united fleet could easily sail from La Spezia or La Maddalena in order to intercept them west of Corsica. We have 6-7 BBs, 1 BC ( Goeben), 7 Bs, 7-10 CAs, 6-8 CLs, dozens of DDs against 2-3 French BBs, 2-3 British Invincible-class BCs, 11-15 Bs, 7-11 CA, 4-6 CLs and doxens DDs. The Courbet-class French dreadnoughts were not particularly to be feared. According to Wikipedia: "At maximum elevation, [their 12" guns had] a maximum range of only 13,500 m". In comparison, the Cavour-class battleships could fire up to 24,000 m (even more so in WW2). The British BCs tended to blow up. I would expect a battle of Jutland reduced in size with an uncertain outcome and perhaps big troubles for the convoy.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 30, 2019 8:18:53 GMT -6
The [North] Africa troops could have even marched to [Bona, Algiers and Oran] , boarded transports and sailed to France. Italy could never have stopped them with the French Fleet in Toulon and the British forces in Gibraltar. Let us suppose that the Triple Alliance kept an eye open on the embarkation ports by means of spies, submarines and false fishing boats. To reach Marseille (400 nm) the French convoy would have to sail about three days. The Triple Alliance united fleet could easily sail from La Spezia or La Maddalena in order to intercept them west of Corsica. We have 6-7 BBs, 1 BC ( Goeben), 7 Bs, 7-10 CAs, 6-8 CLs, dozens of DDs against 2-3 French BBs, 2-3 British Invincible-class BCs, 11-15 Bs, 7-11 CA, 4-6 CLs and doxens DDs. The Courbet-class French dreadnoughts were not particularly to be feared. According to Wikipedia: "At maximum elevation, [their 12" guns had] a maximum range of only 13,500 m". In comparison, the Cavour-class battleships could fire up to 24,000 m (even more so in WW2). The British BCs tended to blow up. I would expect a battle of Jutland reduced in size with an uncertain outcome and perhaps big troubles for the convoy. If I am the Allied high command, I would not attempt to sail the African troops to Marseille, it is too dangerous. I would suspect that the Alliance is maintaining surveillance of my French North African Ports and trying to sail to Toulon would not be a good idea. I would not take the risk, but move the forces accumulated to the western ports and sail from there. Now based on your virtual reality, I would not sail directly to Toulon or Marseilles but move across to the Spanish coast, sail along the coast west of Mallorca past Barcelona then across to Marseilles and Toulon. It's about 258 miles across from Maddalena but I doubt Maddalena can handle the whole Alliance fleet. To me, this is the best strategy for the Entente based on your scenario.
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Post by vonfriedman on May 30, 2019 13:21:50 GMT -6
Your plan could work. In February 1941 the Italians, despite having taken the sea in force and in advance and being also able (theoretically) to rely on aerial reconnaissance, failed to intercept Renown and Malaya on their return trip after having briefly bombarded Genoa. (Incidentally, the real purpose of Operation Grog was to make the imminent meeting between Mussolini and Francisco Franco fail. as indeed happened.) I will try to put together some Steam & Iron scenarios based on these various hypotheses.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 30, 2019 15:01:46 GMT -6
Sounds like you are moving ahead. Here some information that I suspect you have already researched, but I just wanted to help. In the First World War, Venice was the only base that could support a battle force adequately. Bari was open to the wind and did not have an infrastructure to handle a naval force. Brindisi was being converted during the war to handle light cruisers, destroyers and submarines along with flotilla leaders. Valona had no facilities. The major base for the Regia Marina was Taranto. The other bases were Spezia, La Maddalena and Augusta. There were minor facilities at Messina, Gaeta, Leghorn and Tripoli. One item I forgot to mention is that while Spain was neutral, over 2000 Spaniards volunteered to fight with the French Foreign Legion. This would seem to me, to mean that if the convoy's did take the Majorca path to Toulon, they might get some help from the Spanish Navy. I don't know if you would want to imitate that in your scenario, but it might be interesting.
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Post by vonfriedman on May 31, 2019 8:14:01 GMT -6
I just finished implementing your plan in a Steam & Iron scenario. In the afternoon, the vanguard of the Triple Alliance fleet spotted the French newest ships acting as a cover force. The situation about three hours before sunset is shown in the attachment.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 31, 2019 9:39:50 GMT -6
I just finished implementing your plan in a Steam & Iron scenario. In the afternoon, the vanguard of the Triple Alliance fleet spotted the French newest ships acting as a cover force. The situation about three hours before sunset is shown in the attachment. Interesting. You got your Jutland-style battle after all. Who won?
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Post by vonfriedman on Jun 1, 2019 1:03:00 GMT -6
In order to show the routes traveled by the ships I had to stop the game at that point. In a couple of other simulations I found that the battle would have had an uncertain outcome. It was also very difficult - despite having written the scenario myself - to find the convoy of troops, which was hiding towards the Spanish coast. It would be my intention to make this scenario available to Steam & Iron thread users. Do I have your permission to quote the Entente operation plan as the "OP (Oldpop) plan"?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 1, 2019 8:49:14 GMT -6
In order to show the routes traveled by the ships I had to stop the game at that point. In a couple of other simulations I found that the battle would have had an uncertain outcome. It was also very difficult - despite having written the scenario myself - to find the convoy of troops, which was hiding towards the Spanish coast. It would be my intention to make this scenario available to Steam & Iron thread users. Do I have your permission to quote the Entente operation plan as the "OP (Oldpop) plan"? I am very pleased to hear of the success of our plan. You certainly do have my permission to use the Spanish Coast Operational plan. You've done all the work, I just provided some ideas. Excellent. I hope all the other members like the plan. Is it possible to try to use the Casablanca Operational Plan. That was the original idea of moving the troops to Casablanca and other NW African ports and sailing the convoy from there to Bordeaux. The Alliance fleet would try to get through the Straits of Gibraltar and that might generate a nice Jutland-style battle. Just an idea.
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Post by vonfriedman on Jun 2, 2019 3:43:18 GMT -6
I inserted in the thread Custom scenarios of Steam & Iron the files that oldpop and I developed together, he with the basic idea and me for the rest. I allowed myself to add a little story, in which oldpop is assigned the rank of Admiral.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 2, 2019 10:13:02 GMT -6
I inserted in the thread Custom scenarios of Steam & Iron the files that oldpop and I developed together, he with the basic idea and me for the rest. I allowed myself to add a little story, in which oldpop is assigned the rank of Admiral. Excellent and thanks for including me in your credits. I hope everyone enjoys the scenario. Update: I just downloaded the two zip files and copied them to the scenario folder. When I try to run it, error message about no flag. What am I doing wrong?
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