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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 20, 2014 21:36:09 GMT -6
news.yahoo.com/six-russian-fighters-intercepted-us-near-alaska-222607256.html
Oh, come on, Vladimir, let's use a little imagination in this stuff. We've been doing this since the late 1950's. They take off from Kamchatka fly through the ADIZ along the Alaskan coast, down the Canadian coast and then turn around and head to the barn. If it is a bear bomber, it will continue down the California coast, then high tail it for home. Same routine, different era. We had similar incidents on a weekly basis, more if the weather was better. They fly by, we intercept, get close and see if they have added anything new. We point them home, everyone is happy. I've seen it so many times I could write the script. 
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Post by steel selachian on Sept 21, 2014 7:24:20 GMT -6
"It's the same plan that we used last time and the seventeen times before that." - Captain Blackadder, "Blackadder Goes Forth"
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2014 9:18:20 GMT -6
:DThis is one of those "C'mon, Man" moments.
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Post by steel selachian on Sept 21, 2014 12:02:01 GMT -6
I'd be amused to know how many different bombers they're managing to sortie for these dog-and-pony shows. Last I checked, they had about 60 Tu-95 airframes and a dozen or so Tu-160s. Have fun figuring out how many of those can fly on a given day. I'm assuming the article caption is a screwup; the MiG-35 is just a revamped MiG-29 demonstrator built by Mikoyan that as far as I know has yet to enter production (not sure there are even any orders for it). The MiG-29 is not something I'd want to use for that job; you'd thing something with longer legs would be a better choice for flying over the Far North.
Of course, the other question is whether they're making sure to have some ELINT assets around to check out the 3rd FW's Raptors during these little games.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2014 12:25:12 GMT -6
I'd be amused to know how many different bombers they're managing to sortie for these dog-and-pony shows. Last I checked, they had about 60 Tu-95 airframes and a dozen or so Tu-160s. Have fun figuring out how many of those can fly on a given day. I'm assuming the article caption is a screwup; the MiG-35 is just a revamped MiG-29 demonstrator built by Mikoyan that as far as I know has yet to enter production (not sure there are even any orders for it). The MiG-29 is not something I'd want to use for that job; you'd thing something with longer legs would be a better choice for flying over the Far North. Of course, the other question is whether they're making sure to have some ELINT assets around to check out the 3rd FW's Raptors during these little games. This link gives you information on the deployment of the F-35s at Kamchatka. en.ria.ru/military_news/20140212/187462295/Russia-Arms-Air-Regiment-in-Far-East-With-Su-35S-Fighter-Jets.html |
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Post by steel selachian on Sept 21, 2014 14:16:48 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2014 15:28:46 GMT -6
One of the confusing issues in this, is that there are Russian Navy interceptors on Kamchatka. These are MIG-31s at Elizovo Air Base. These birds have a combat radius at .8 mach of about 900 mi. This means that the Aleutians, except for the very outward islands are too far for them to fly without in flight refueling plus, you would not use these as escorts for bombers. I doubt the aircraft were these MIG-31s. Here is a preliminary list from Wikipedia on Far East air bases. Sorry for the source, I will look for more recent.
Artem (Primorskiye). 11 PVO, 22 IAP. MiG-23.
Zolotaya Dolina (Primorskiye). 11 PVO, 47 IAP. Su-27
Dzemgi (Komsomol'sl-na-Amure). 11 PVO, 60 IAP. Su-27
Khabarovsk (Khabarovsk). 11 PVO, 301 IAP. MiG-23
Sovetskaya Gavan (Khabarovsk). 11 PVO, 308 IAP. MiG-23
Dolinsk-Sokol (Sakhalin). 11 PVO, 365 IAP. MiG-31, Su-27
Iturup (Burevestnik Airport). 11 PVO, 387 IAP. MiG-23
Chuguyevka (Primorskiy Kray). 11 PVO, 513 IAP. MiG-31, MiG-25. (Vasquez says 530 IAP) Dolinsk-Sokol. 11 PVO, 777 IAP. MiG-23 (Feskov; not listed in Vasquez)
Yelizovo-Petropavlovsk(Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky Airport) (Kamchatka). 11 PVO, 865 IAP. MiG-31.
This article seems to indicate a renewed interest in the Far East bases - en.ria.ru/military_news/20140914/192932063/Russias-Pacific-Fleet-Begins-Spot-Checks-Over-Seas-of-Japan-and.html
If you look at Kamchatka on Google Earth, and examine Petropavlosk in the south, there is an airport at Yelizovo. If I zoom in, it has fighters lined up at the southend of the runway. They appear to be MIG-31, ten of them.
I will keep researching this point.
UPDATE: Take a look at this powerpoint piece about NORAD and ADIZ's from FAA, it might help. www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2011/Jan/49877/ADIZ%20TFR%20Intercepts%20w%20answers.pdf
Here are some maps of the Alaskan ADIZ to give you reference to Kamchatka www.google.com/search?q=Alaskan+ADIZ&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&tbm=isch&imgil=1sn7Vy9AR5pERM%253A%253BnkdyTVREKRuQVM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FAir_Defense_Identification_Zone_(North_America)&source=iu&pf=m&fir=1sn7Vy9AR5pERM%253A%252CnkdyTVREKRuQVM%252C_&usg=__NgrazT5-HdcLFaIuc3_SLzPE5ZU%3D&biw=1920&bih=934&ved=0CD8Qyjc&ei=r00fVPHMM4j2igKen4DQBw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=1sn7Vy9AR5pERM%253A%3B03zkpveXJXrkNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fen%252Fd%252Fd8%252FAlaskan_ADIZ.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fprojectavalon.net%252Fforum4%252Fshowthread.php%253F75173-Putin-sends-Warplanes-To-the-western-coast-of-Alaska%3B1086%3B696
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2014 20:02:51 GMT -6
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Post by steel selachian on Sept 21, 2014 21:34:35 GMT -6
According to the reports the Russians had a pair of IL-78s in the formation; I doubt the Bears would need tankers to stick with them all the way to the ADIZ. That could have been for the MiG-31s.
One thing to note is that the Russians do not have a lot of the IL-78s; Wikipedia states they have about 20 (all based at Ryazan in the west). By comparison, we have over 400 KC-135s in service and over 50 KC-10s.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2014 22:02:01 GMT -6
According to the reports the Russians had a pair of IL-78s in the formation; I doubt the Bears would need tankers to stick with them all the way to the ADIZ. That could have been for the MiG-31s. One thing to note is that the Russians do not have a lot of the IL-78s; Wikipedia states they have about 20 (all based at Ryazan in the west). By comparison, we have over 400 KC-135s in service and over 50 KC-10s. The TU-95 has an unrefueled range of about 9400 miles, so it wouldn't need to refuel. Here is something to take a look at. freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-bombers-fly-within-50-miles-of-california-coast/
Info on IL-78 - en.ria.ru/analysis/20100708/159738146.html - For this kind of training mission, you might need only one of these tankers, since it will accommodate two fighters at a time. You would refuel probably midway through the flight.
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Post by sirchaos on Sept 22, 2014 8:10:40 GMT -6
But what is the purpose of this?
When I was a kid, we had a game called "Schellenkloppen" (roughly, "punch the doorbell") - you rang a random doorbell, usually on a big apartment complex or high-rise building, then ran away when someone answered. You know, just for the heck of it... in our defense, we were kids.
Could this exercise have a similar purpose?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 22, 2014 9:25:20 GMT -6
But what is the purpose of this? When I was a kid, we had a game called "Schellenkloppen" (roughly, "punch the doorbell") - you rang a random doorbell, usually on a big apartment complex or high-rise building, then ran away when someone answered. You know, just for the heck of it... in our defense, we were kids. Could this exercise have a similar purpose? Uh HuH!! I'll bet you kids were popular in the neighborhood.
This kind of mission can have several purposes; 1. A training mission to develop experience in long range missions using air refueling 2. Most likely to test our air defenses, radio procedures, ELINT(electronic intelligence) and intercept times. They used to do this every week during my era, I suggest they are doing the same. The Bear bombers are probably accompanied by an ELINT aircraft designed to capture electronic signals. Many times ELINT trawlers are involved. They would sail off of the coast of Alaska and then proceed down the Canadian coast and then the western coast of the US. These "trawlers" would have antenna's all over them, although they were titled fishing trawlers, we knew what they were fishing for. During one of these episodes, we were placed in an ELINT period. No transmitter frequency changes etc. Nothing that could betray our procedures. It's just a big game, I've seen it many times.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 22, 2014 9:58:54 GMT -6
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Post by sirchaos on Sept 22, 2014 14:24:42 GMT -6
We never stuck around long enough to gauge our popularity. Plus, being smart kids, we never did it where people would know who we were. Uh... not that I´d admit to ever doing anything like that, mind you. On a more serious note, I assume at least of the rationale behind this is that Putin wants to pretend that Russia is still the same powerful enemy they were during the Cold War, by having his forces play the same games they used to play back then. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 22, 2014 17:38:00 GMT -6
We never stuck around long enough to gauge our popularity. Plus, being smart kids, we never did it where people would know who we were. Uh... not that I´d admit to ever doing anything like that, mind you. On a more serious note, I assume at least of the rationale behind this is that Putin wants to pretend that Russia is still the same powerful enemy they were during the Cold War, by having his forces play the same games they used to play back then. Don't focus on just Alaska, because the Russian aircraft have been intercepted by NATO over Europe. These were two Bear H bombers conducting strategic bombing runs and jets from the Norway, Denmark, Britain and Holland intercepted them. My guess is that the nuclear readiness exercise they are currently involved is extended to these kinds of training flights. They also have practiced cruise missile attacks off of the coast of Canada.
My guess is that this is just Putin's way of reminding everyone of the power of the Russian regime. They are deploying forces into the arctic and some new attack submarines. Unfortunately they are hoping that the west's involvement with Muslim extremists will keep us busy while they regain lost prestige and territory. I think they have forgotten why the Soviet Union fell; economics is the answer. If he causes economic problems for his nation, the Russian rich might just step in and eliminate him to safeguard their gains over the last thirty years. Time will tell.
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