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Post by deeznuts on Jun 2, 2019 14:07:32 GMT -6
Once you get magazine box just make all your Battleships use a 20 inch magazine box belt armour, it’s a massive amount of weight saving and your ships will be invulnerable to even very high calibre guns at anything but extremely short range
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Post by dorn on Jun 2, 2019 16:19:23 GMT -6
Once you get magazine box just make all your Battleships use a 20 inch magazine box belt armour, it’s a massive amount of weight saving and your ships will be invulnerable to even very high calibre guns at anything but extremely short range You preserve your magazine however rest of ship would have level of armour that not protect against capital ships guns and even against bombs.
I do not think that magazine box protection as is done in RTW2 is something interesting for standard battleships/battlecruiser.
Through my game as UK from 1920 (very large fleet) I lost 1 battlecruiser from flashfires and no capital ship from magazine explosion. So investing heavily to protect magazine does not seem effective. If there could be done magazine box with same small increased value of armour (eg. 1" of belt and 1" of deck armour more) it could be interesting for capital ships. But as it done now it is useful mainly for cruisers, especially heavy cruisers.
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Post by deeznuts on Jun 3, 2019 6:40:41 GMT -6
It leaves you with 10 Inches over everything else, more than enough.
Seriously try it out and see how effective it is in battle
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Post by southkraut on Jun 3, 2019 7:28:37 GMT -6
I don't like overthinking things, so I follow a few rules of thumb:
* Try to have 2in armor (splinter protection) on everything * If 2in isn't possible, don't armor it at all. * If All or Nothing is available, use it. * Make turret armor two or three inches thicker than belt armor. * Make turret top armor as thick as turret face armor. * Use inclined belts if available. * Don't go above 12in for any surface, unless you specifically want a boat to take a beating. * Else, if you think that a boat needs more than 12in, you're wrong and the boat and needs to stay at longer ranges, or else should be split up into multiple smaller boats. * Long-range big-gun boats should have deck armor sufficient to protect against plunging hits at extreme range, and only enough belt armor to protect against belt hits at desirable engagement distances.
That last point coincidentally also gives you decent protection against level bombing for your big ships.
And my big ships don't have enough armor to protect against close-range direct fire from big guns, because they're not supposed to fight at close range. That's what destroyers are for.
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Post by deeznuts on Jun 3, 2019 7:38:37 GMT -6
>turret top as thick as turret face
Surely on Battleships that means you are wasting thousands of tons of displacement on turret top armour? Past 7 Inches there is very little that can penetrate the deck short of 20 inch guns or 2000+Ib bombs
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Post by zardoz on Jun 3, 2019 8:58:07 GMT -6
From my RTW 1 experience I have the impression that in the first decade deck armor is not so important. Later it is very important. It is costly but without sufficient deck armot in the later game BBs can be blown up rather quickly.
There are some user-delivered excel-sheets showing the development of calibre penetration. This gives you a hind what is needeed and what is overdoing. However, keep in mind that beside gun quality also the AP capabilities of the ammo is a factor.
I tend to armor ships in the beginning less but out then emphasis on a very thick armor later.
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Post by southkraut on Jun 3, 2019 9:24:33 GMT -6
>turret top as thick as turret face Surely on Battleships that means you are wasting thousands of tons of displacement on turret top armour? Past 7 Inches there is very little that can penetrate the deck short of 20 inch guns or 2000+Ib bombs Possibly so, yes.
But the manual states that turret top hits are possible at any range, since they're assumed to be sloped, but does not specify where such hits are placed on the penetration table. Since I don't like flash fires, and I use relatively few turrets anyways, I so far preferred to err on the side of caution.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 10:25:56 GMT -6
>turret top as thick as turret face Surely on Battleships that means you are wasting thousands of tons of displacement on turret top armour? Past 7 Inches there is very little that can penetrate the deck short of 20 inch guns or 2000+Ib bombs Possibly so, yes.
But the manual states that turret top hits are possible at any range, since they're assumed to be sloped, but does not specify where such hits are placed on the penetration table. Since I don't like flash fires, and I use relatively few turrets anyways, I so far preferred to err on the side of caution.
It will be slightly sloped, you can look at any picture of battleship of dreadnought are. I would think 1" of armour higher should be enough.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 10:28:02 GMT -6
From my RTW 1 experience I have the impression that in the first decade deck armor is not so important. Later it is very important. It is costly but without sufficient deck armot in the later game BBs can be blown up rather quickly. There are some user-delivered excel-sheets showing the development of calibre penetration. This gives you a hind what is needeed and what is overdoing. However, keep in mind that beside gun quality also the AP capabilities of the ammo is a factor. I tend to armor ships in the beginning less but out then emphasis on a very thick armor later. I completely agree with you. Early in time of pre-dreadnoughts I use only 1" of deck armour and I have never any issue with it. It saves a lot of tonnage and money. And at time when 1" of deck armour is not enough, pre-dreadnoughts are usually on secondary duty where I can take the risk as even penetration in long range cannot destroy ship if it is quite unlucky magazine hit.
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Post by majorsid on Jun 3, 2019 11:16:24 GMT -6
Had a 6" CL kill a BC with a turret top flash fire. My minimum fir CA and up turret tops is 2", with a corresponding increase with the time period.
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Post by abclark on Jun 3, 2019 11:25:54 GMT -6
>turret top as thick as turret face Surely on Battleships that means you are wasting thousands of tons of displacement on turret top armour? Past 7 Inches there is very little that can penetrate the deck short of 20 inch guns or 2000+Ib bombs Possibly so, yes.
But the manual states that turret top hits are possible at any range, since they're assumed to be sloped, but does not specify where such hits are placed on the penetration table. Since I don't like flash fires, and I use relatively few turrets anyways, I so far preferred to err on the side of caution.
I've played several late game fleet battles and have never had a 16" gun penetrate a 7" turret top. And when it says that they're sloped, it means only a few degrees off horizontal. It's slightly less effective than deck armor, but only by a few percent. Here's an example of the slope on a turret top of the period.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 3, 2019 14:40:45 GMT -6
I play as Britain so am no stranger to flash fires. I've managed to beat this defect and make good use of armour following these rules.
1. Turret sides 2" thicker than belt on all ships CA and up. 2. TT 3" thicker than deck (minimum) on Bs, BBs and BCs. 3. All submerged torpedo mounts are put on Bs. This is to use the excess weight needed for refits. Beyond 1908 though, the designer of any capital ships with submerged mounts needs air holes drilling into their skull. 4. Conning tower armoured to the same as the calibre of the main gun. Always. 14" guns? 14" conning tower. 5. AON is the only way to go. The weight savings go to the turrets. 6. Secondaries are also AON-esque for me. 0", 2" or 6". No deviation.
And obviously... Stay out of range!
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Post by brygun on Jun 3, 2019 15:42:05 GMT -6
In the BB/BC era I saw alot of quick kills to magazine explosion so I tended to make the turret armor = gun inches. Checking the gun data to set the turret top to its outer range, if I can afford the weight. AoN is avail with the belt and deck armor based on defense from CA guns (8in to 10 in). the principle here is you will slowly lose speed to BB/BC fire but are likely to make one of them explode in a magazine explosion before then.
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Post by southkraut on Jun 4, 2019 3:14:28 GMT -6
Possibly so, yes.
But the manual states that turret top hits are possible at any range, since they're assumed to be sloped, but does not specify where such hits are placed on the penetration table. Since I don't like flash fires, and I use relatively few turrets anyways, I so far preferred to err on the side of caution.
I've played several late game fleet battles and have never had a 16" gun penetrate a 7" turret top. And when it says that they're sloped, it means only a few degrees off horizontal. It's slightly less effective than deck armor, but only by a few percent. Here's an example of the slope on a turret top of the period. If we approach it realistically, then yeah. I was just playing it safe because the rules seemed ambiguous to me, and I was rewarded with never having any flash fires at long range.
In my next playthrough, I'll stick to realism and give TTs only deck armor + one to three inches (depending on displacement and role), and see what happens.
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