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Post by Sven on Jul 7, 2015 0:14:17 GMT -6
Well, if I look at the fleet structure I will get if I play a "random" SAI scenario ( which look realistic to me) and RTW is based on that system ( as pointed out in the manual) I am certain that we will be satisfied with what we get when the game goes to the tactical resolution screen.
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 7, 2015 1:43:03 GMT -6
RTW is not a historical game and the RTW world resembles but does not copy the era 1900-1925 that we're familiar with. It is a representative simulation/game not a deterministic one. That said you are reading too much into the thumbnail response posted above. From the manual: Of course there will be some players for whom the game's core design philosophy is unacceptable but given the Player's role as professional head of their navy, his duties do not extend to micromanaging divisional compositions. Nowhere did I hint that divisions are just thrown together and generally like will sail with like. In the pre-dreadnought era you can find a number of instances where armoured cruisers grouped directly with battleships' divisional organization. Nowhere was it hinted that BC's and CA's will operate in the same divisions. Please give RTW a chance or await feedback from the community before trashing it. Thanks. I'm not bashing RTW at all. I'll be getting it as soon as it's released (gotta wait till Friday my time ). And I never said CA's and BC's would be in the same squadron. What I'm trying to say is that an old CA would almost never be in the same fleet as a modern BC. Yes the were old CA's at Jutland, but they were wunder Jellicoe's command, not Beatty's. So that situation is fine, but what happens in a scenario where Beatty sorties on his own? What guarantee (not 100% obviously) do we have that Beatty isn't going to get lumbered with Arbuthnot's cruisers on a regular basis just because they are available? In all likelihood Beatty would have told Arbuthnot to stay at home. The same could apply to old slow CL's. Yes, they are still great for supporting a battleline, but they have no place in a battlecruiser sortie. Unless the generator can recognise an old 2nd line ship, it's just gonna order an ala carte fleet. I'll have 3 BC's, 5CL's and a gaggle of destroyers thanks. Regardless of how well they work together. Cheers Bruce
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 1:46:58 GMT -6
I am sure there can be minute methods to circumvent this, if we know the mechanism is the same as SAI random battle then it shouldn't be that difficult. Plus we certainly don't want to delay the game for 6 months!....
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 7, 2015 1:52:08 GMT -6
I am sure there can be minute methods to circumvent this, if we know the mechanism is the same as SAI random battle then it shouldn't be that difficult. Plus we certainly don't want to delay the game for 6 months!.... Here I gotta disagree. Random SAI's often throws old CL's paired up with BC's. All it sees is "a light cruiser is a light cruiser". I actually brought this up some months ago, but I don't know if it registered with the devs. Cheers Bruce
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 2:20:37 GMT -6
I am sure there can be minute methods to circumvent this, if we know the mechanism is the same as SAI random battle then it shouldn't be that difficult. Plus we certainly don't want to delay the game for 6 months!.... Here I gotta disagree. Random SAI's often throws old CL's paired up with BC's. All it sees is "a light cruiser is a light cruiser". I actually brought this up some months ago, but I don't know if it registered with the devs. Cheers Bruce Eh I've never seen old CLs and BCs got into the same division. But say it does. As a player you can simply not deploy obsolete CLs to the same area as your BCs. Which is what I mean by 'circumvent'.
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Post by kasuga on Jul 7, 2015 3:18:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply.
Well, this is something... hard to balance, as other guys say if you have old ships with new ships in same area is not like they are going to be used together... i refer that i can have a group of old CAs in an area but not as 1st liners... they could be the safe option for CLs and DDs when retreat VS enemy CLs and DDs.
I think that somekind of control over divisions AND their role is needed, maybe i want have in an area old ships to play the role of shore protection or as mobile defenses to receive raider parties... maybe something i want avoid is that have old ships in an area become a problem because AI use them in first line over true first line ships... and well, some designs are more to play a role inside a division of diferent ships and not all ships are designed to fight in a division, for example a raider CL is not usefull in a CL scout role for BB divisions.
Lets see how it works, one day less hehehe.
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 7, 2015 3:38:27 GMT -6
Here I gotta disagree. Random SAI's often throws old CL's paired up with BC's. All it sees is "a light cruiser is a light cruiser". I actually brought this up some months ago, but I don't know if it registered with the devs. Cheers Bruce Eh I've never seen old CLs and BCs got into the same division. But say it does. As a player you can simply not deploy obsolete CLs to the same area as your BCs. Which is what I mean by 'circumvent'. Once again, I'm not talking about deploying in the same DIVISION/SQUADRON, but FLEET. But yes, I guess we can look forward to the game and see how it plays out. Cheers Bruce
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Post by jdkbph on Jul 7, 2015 6:26:01 GMT -6
No, once a battle scenario is generated, the AI creates the divisions and the Player has to fight the battle with the organization that is provided. This reflects the design philosophy that you fight with what you have rather than what you might want and represents the Player taking command of more junior commander's forces. I see this as bad. If you have the idea of two "fleets" in one region (ala Grand fleet and battlecruiser fleet) you might get (for instance) grand fleet cruisers (IE older and slower) sortieing with the BCF. If you've got your shiny new Lion class BC's on a sortie, they are not gonna drag an old Drake class cruiser with them. How are we going to be able to tell the scenario generator that "these two ship don't operate together"? Divisions weren't ad-hoc formations by and large, and a sortie was (as far as the heavier boys were concerned) by (pre-organised) squadron. I can understand if some ships drop out of a squadron sortie, but to have every scenario made up of ad-hoc squadrons is not historical. Sounds like you're talking about doctrine... specifically tactical doctrine governing force composition and employment. This would be a generic set of rules covering such things as which characteristics would govern, in a general sense (ie, usually or whenever possible, but not always), how ships are grouped together and how they are deployed or disposed under certain various conditions. Establishing doctrine is indeed "admiralty" level stuff, and assuming it's not already addressed by some other mechanism in the game, perhaps it will be considered for inclusion at some point. JD
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 7, 2015 8:37:03 GMT -6
Random SAI's often throws old CL's paired up with BC's. All it sees is "a light cruiser is a light cruiser". I actually brought this up some months ago, but I don't know if it registered with the devs. Cheers Bruce It did. The ship selection for the battles has been refined for RTW compared with the random battles in SAI.
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Post by cleveland on Jul 7, 2015 9:13:28 GMT -6
Frederick, is Thursday still the projected release date? Looking forward to this!
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 7, 2015 9:24:53 GMT -6
Random SAI's often throws old CL's paired up with BC's. All it sees is "a light cruiser is a light cruiser". I actually brought this up some months ago, but I don't know if it registered with the devs. Cheers Bruce It did. The ship selection for the battles has been refined for RTW compared with the random battles in SAI.
That's great. I may not sound like it, but this is actually me being enthusiastic for the game. If I was not interested or thought it wouldn't be a great game, you wouldn't have heard boo from me. Cant wait till Friday. Cheers Bruce
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Post by kasuga on Jul 7, 2015 14:34:48 GMT -6
We can expect tomorrow the leak of game cover??? i am curious about what are you going to use... only ships likw in SAI and RJW or some guys portrait hehehe.
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Post by randomizer on Jul 7, 2015 23:54:50 GMT -6
We can expect tomorrow the leak of game cover??? i am curious about what are you going to use... only ships likw in SAI and RJW or some guys portrait hehehe. The Team is currently closed up at action stations and no hits have been received as yet. So I would not hold my breath waiting for a leak...
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Post by bshaftoe on Jul 8, 2015 2:37:01 GMT -6
What time will it be available? I live in Dublin, so if you release it in the morning (US time) I might be able to play a couple of hours before going to sleep.
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Post by kasuga on Jul 8, 2015 3:57:05 GMT -6
Ok, i am using some sandbags to improve protection in my old and obsolete armored cruisers if i know it i dont create super armored cruisers to engage BBs
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