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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 3:39:12 GMT -6
This will be not regural AAR, but I will show some interesting moments and discuss them.
Start: 1900 Country: France Fleet: Small Budget: Historical Legacy fleet: AI generated
1/1904 - Blowing the budget
Situation starts to be critical with Germany. Tension during 1903 rose to a level when war with Germany is more about when it starts. During 1903 after 1902 decision to laid down armoured cruiser to counter RN and USN designs with emphasies speed, armour to have dual role to hunt protected cruisers.
In 1903 there was another decision about protected cruisers. Both Forbin class protected cruisers are not deemed to be quite well balanced thus was made decision build another colonial powerfull colonial cruiser with speed of 22 knots, heavy 6" armament.
During late 1903 several things occurs in two month period. Firstly Naval Minister request 4 new destroyers which Admiralty decide to build 600 tons destroyers with 6 torpedo tubes and high speed of 29 knots. Another thing was that local shipyard offered Admiralty to build another Sfax class cruiser with 10 % discount and Admiralty accepted. Admiralty can see 4 protected cruisers as efficient number as 1 modern cruiser will be sent to Southeast Asia, the second one will be used by fleets and 2 older Forbin class cruisers will be rebuilt to 6" guns as admiralty expect that penetration power of 6" guns are enough at usually combat range and give overweight cruisers better chance with armament of 6x6" guns with broadside of 4 guns.
As tension with Germany rose Admiralty ordered gun and torpedo training for whole fleet.
Just at the end of the year Admiralty get information that better fire control is available for use on our battleships. The main issue is that Magenta class battleships are more than 200 tons overweight so refit is expected to last 4 months with costs 1M per month.
Actual funds: 15M Monthly balance: -2.6M - construction of Sfax protexted cruisers: 1.85M - construction of Edgar Quinet armoured cruisers: 2M - construction of 4 new destroyers: 0.96M
Right now Admiralty expected that after 6 months in July 1903 that 4 destroyers will be commisioned but Admiralty will be out of funds with expected 4-5 months of construction remaining for Edgar Quinet as refit to central firing is expected during construction.
Admiralty has several choices relating to budget: 1. stop construction of armoured cruiser Edgar Quinet and start refit of both Magenta class battleships 2. stop construction of 1 Sfax class protected cruiser and start refit of weaker Guyedon battleship 3. do nothing and hope that Prime Minister authorized more funds in 6 months period
Admiralty has already start strategic plans against Germany and evaluation strenght and weaknesses of both fleets.
Actual strength of fleet is (in construction in paranthesses): France/Germany: Battleships: 3/3 Armoured cruisers (1)/0 Protected cruisers: 2(+2)/2 Destroyers: 13 (+4)/14 Corvettes: 0/2 Submarines 0/(+1)
So far summarization is: - Magenta class battleships are slightly better than Wetting class battleships but long range fight about 4000 yards are preferred as extended belt could be penetrated by 6" guns in shorter ranges - Guyedon class battleship is inferior to even Brandenburg class and Admiralty need to be caution with this ship - both protected German cruisers are qutie a threat to Forbin class crusiers so Forbin class cruisers after withdrawal from colonies could be used as raiders
- Arballate class should be preffered as our main screen due to powerful torpedo armament, overall French destroyers are better armed by guns, but worse (Durandel class) by torpedo tubes
Question remains. What to do now.
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Post by skyblazer on Jun 3, 2019 4:22:04 GMT -6
Balance your current build as best as you can and try to build some corvette for trade protection otherwise you'll be looking at more then half of your destroyer force being taken up in that role instead. But once all your current builds are complete I'd say its time to build a new battleship. At current you could build a 22knot predread with 13" guns which isn't to bad of an idea but seeing as you've already got plenty in the works atm its ok to wait and see what tech you get between now and then before going for a new battleship
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Post by akosjaccik on Jun 3, 2019 5:45:09 GMT -6
Hm. Taking a look at the situation and the save file...
"Magenta class battleships are slightly better than Wettin class battleships but long range fight about 4000 yards are preferred as extended belt could be penetrated by 6" guns in shorter ranges." The problem that might occur is ammunition. Eighty rounds per barrels, even with updated fire directors may not be enough to cripple the german battle line, given the hit probability. Still, that might be the preferred doctrine. "both protected German cruisers are qutie a threat to Forbin class crusiers so Forbin class cruisers after withdrawal from colonies could be used as raiders" Mainly the armor on "our" cruisers project a grim fate, but I don't necessarily see the situation that one-sided. As for the speed, parity seems to be achieved (though Niobe has an estimation of both 19 and 22 kts); and looking at the main armaments, the french cruisers could maybe engage at about 5000-7000 yards with the possibility of success. Should problems arise, the Sfax-class is excellent for the job. "Arballate class should be preffered as our main screen due to powerful torpedo armament, overall French destroyers are better armed by guns, but worse (Durandel class) by torpedo tubes" Probably. With the current standing, maybe 6 to 9 ships may be required for trade protection and coastal patrol duties, and the Durandal could do the job, so for the time being, purpose-built "large" corvettes are not necessarily of high priority, should the new destroyers arrive in time.
As for the possibilities. "1. stop construction of armoured cruiser Edgar Quinet and start refit of both Magenta class battleships" Truth be told, it's a tempting option. I can see that the Edgar Quinet will nullify the german cruiser force, however she might be a bit of an overkill right now, and I trust the Sfax-class. On the other hand, I would not dare to attach her to the main battleline, so she gets stuck in this weird limbo. Issue is, however, she'll be ready in nine months, which is not a bad letter of recommendation right at the moment. 3. do nothing and hope that Prime Minister authorized more funds in 6 months period This actually isn't a horrible idea considering war is looming on the horizon, and "our" assets do not provide a calming enough superiority in a way that resources should be kept in money. For now, work should continue, and should be stopped when and if there will be no other option. 2. stop construction of 1 Sfax class protected cruiser and start refit of weaker Guyedon battleship There is rationale behind this option, as Amiral Cécille is four months behind Edgar Quinet, and while I personally see more reason for the Sfax's existence, guns need to be put on water.
Overall, I'd propose to continue the work on the ships for now (freeing up the destroyers' costs in ~four months should help), and halt the construction of Amiral Cécille when and if it is necessary to launch the other two cruisers on time. I did not assess the battleship refits yet, as I do not know what are the intentions. Solely fire control I presume? It's a hard question, but I'd probably pay neither the money, nor the time in the current situation, as I deem alternative costs too severe.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 6:33:35 GMT -6
akosjaccikI need only fire control refit for Magenta class battleship however ships are overweight quite a lot which means simple fire control refit can give them disadvantage being low in water which could be fatal. Any refit needs to be as fast as possible, so I think removal of tertiary guns and torpedoes could be viable option. I hope that German battleline does not have enough ammunition too. Your points for variant to continue all construction seems quite strong and probably best point is that guns are needed asap. However I would be caution to use armoured cruiser against battleship, she has not enough thick armour to exchange broadsides but could be used to bring additonal firepower as long as she is not under heavy fire. I will probably play very caution till all new ships are ready for fleet duty as any loss could be disaster. Relating to Dorandel class destroyers, there was intention doing them same refit to add 2 torpedo tubes as it is cheap for whole class it would cost same as 1 one new destroyer. However I do not have enough funds so they will be relegated to fleet protection and during war will be analyzed if another 2 torpedo tubes are worth the costs.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 6:36:25 GMT -6
Balance your current build as best as you can and try to build some corvette for trade protection otherwise you'll be looking at more then half of your destroyer force being taken up in that role instead. But once all your current builds are complete I'd say its time to build a new battleship. At current you could build a 22knot predread with 13" guns which isn't to bad of an idea but seeing as you've already got plenty in the works atm its ok to wait and see what tech you get between now and then before going for a new battleship I have not money for corvettes yet and I expect some German destroyers will be on trade protection duty too. Another battleship is out of question next year as she will be not ready for war comming so it is waste of funds.
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Post by akosjaccik on Jun 3, 2019 6:58:35 GMT -6
I need only fire control refit for Magenta class battleship however ships are overweight quite a lot which means simple fire control refit can give them disadvantage being low in water which could be fatal. Any refit needs to be as fast as possible, so I think removal of tertiary guns and torpedoes could be viable option. Reasonable, yes. Especially with the new destroyers around, I strongly agree with getting rid of the torpedo tubes; tertiaries are a bit more shaky, but given we are talking about three four inch rifles per side, it seems to be a good trade for central firing. Seems like the optimal solution, the "only" question is if we have the money and time for it - and this is an urgent question. If I absolutely had to say something, I'd not order the refit. The ships would not be available for four months, what's worse, they would delay the current constructions, and the payoff and risks in return might overall not certainly worth it.
I have to agree again. Both the cruisers and the destroyers under construction are important enough to not divert funds for dedicated corvettes currently. Germany seems to emphasis coastal installations and currently does not build ships, so in ten months the situation might stabilize enough with cautious fighting to gather the tools to firmly get rid of at least the german light forces, even if Germany switches to "Schifftsunami"-mode in the meantime. I agree with the "Keep calm and construct" method.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 13:23:28 GMT -6
I was able to maintain peace till May 1904, just after new destroyers are commissioned into navy.
Hoever issue is that wartime budget does not increase so much, only to 53M per year.
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Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2019 14:17:43 GMT -6
Situation is quite difficult as Germany is able to blockade me.
However destroyer interception during night was quite interesting. After several hits to German destroyer, captain of leading destroyer ordered course directly to German ship. Both ship collided and after 10 minutes there were no German destroyers.
So best strategy for destroyers vs. destroyers is ramming!
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Post by dorn on Jun 4, 2019 5:07:30 GMT -6
War with Germany
So far there were several destroyer engagement and French fleet was able to sink 9 destroyers, usually 1-2 per battle. Situation starts to be bad as Germany with large fleet blockade France but things start to be better when new French cruiser were battleworthy. At the same time Germany lost one battleship to surface action as Germany decided refit one of their battleship with central firing. French fleet decided to postpone any refit and plan operation to attack Helgoland. Both Germany battleships were deployed to defend Helgoland however French ships outnumbered them and were able to damage one battleship and later sink her. French fleet lost 4 destroyers, 2 by mines near German coast, 1 by ramming and 1 by gunfire.
It has changed situation quite rapidly and French fleet start to control seas allowing complete blockade of German trade.
In June 1905 unexepcted event happened when 50M were raised to finance new capital ship. However Minister of Finance decided to take 5 % of funds as thought that Navy has too much funds available, any protest that from 53M funds available 50M are for new capital ships was rejected (reported as bug).
So right know Admiralty thinking how should look new battleship as nobody believe that she will be ready for this war. They are difference voices what should be build: a) battleship - 19 knots, 6x13" Q-1 guns with displacement below 17000 tons and maximum costs 60M.
b) battleship - 21 knots, 6x13" Q-1 guns with displacement below 18500 tons and maximum costs 65M. c) armoured cruiser - 24 knots, 6x13" Q-1 guns with displacement below 20000 tons and maximum costs 75M. d) armoured cruiser - 27 knots, 6x11" Q0 guns with displacement below 20000 tons and maximum costs 85M (armour at lower level than variant c)
e) armoured cruiser - 24 knots, 6x11" Q0 guns with displacement below 13000 tons (slightly large than Edgar Quinet) and maximum costs 50M (armour at similar level to variant d)
note: any speed over 24 knots are very expensive for tonnage and money
What are sugestions of other Admirals? Or will they come with some design proposal?
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Post by akosjaccik on Jun 4, 2019 16:37:27 GMT -6
My sleep schedule is horribly messed up, so excuse my lack of coherence and/or clariy for the time being. I did take a look at the save though, interestingly, I can confirm the financial state, but not the build request - I presume the monetary reallocation cancelled the build request? The patriotic people of France: "We'd like some big ship, here's the money!" Government: "Oh no, you don't!" *yoink* Ah, far too familiar... too bad that from IRL. Anyway, the current battleline speed is 19 knots. Although thanks to the increased efforts in machinery research and development, "our" steam engines are getting better and better, a visible jump in technology still did not occur. One 21kts battleship probably can't really utilize this excess speed while bogged down by three older B capable of 19kts. So, should the Admiralty plan for a new standard speed? While the Gueydon is getting more problematic to count on in the main battleline by the day, the upgraded Magentas are still arguably decent assets, forming the core. As such, in context, the extra speed might not be an investment that will yield returns in a fleet battle, although we can't say so if the ship happens to sortie on her own, I'll give it that. Now that the Edgar Quinet is active, the fleet also has an answer to most threats an enemy cruiser could present. We could advance in this regard, and I'd probably go with the 'd' variant, as 11" should suffice in this regard while 27 knots would mean that the new ship will be the bane of cruisers for a fairly lenghty time possibly, but I am uncertain if I'd pay so much money to push the steam engines to their limits. I even thought about the double 13"s in the CAs case to be later refitted to triple 11"s, but ultimately, probably wouldn't worth it. I'd go with a "somewhat actualized Edgar", so e), however... ...before I lose my thought, let's take a step back. Taking a look at the Mediterranean, I have trust in the Edgar Quinet. The Sfax-class could use either a bit more speed or a bit more firepower, but they are useful still and very solid ships at this displacement; amd the Forbin is okay for policing. As for the battleships however, Gueydon costs a lot of maintenance compared to what she brings to the table - though the secondary suite is respectable. Still, a replacement might be in order.
All in all, I'd maybe vote for a.) - a 19 kts not over-the-top battleship with adequate armor and firepower however. Considering the losses to mine warfare and the fact that some odd submersibles are starting to get into service, heightening the load on the defending destroyers, maybe the acquisition of a couple of minesweeper corvettes could be brought up with the remaining free funds?
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Post by dorn on Jun 4, 2019 16:42:15 GMT -6
My sleep schedule is horribly messed up, so excuse my lack of coherence and/or clariy for the time being. I did take a look at the save though, interestingly, I can confirm the financial state, but not the build request - I presume the monetary reallocation cancelled the build request? I have not noticed you are completely right, it is a bug!
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Post by dorn on Jun 4, 2019 16:46:27 GMT -6
I have already thought about it and I think this ship could be best what French navy needs.
It has superior firepower with 6x13" guns, very well armoured, much better than any other battleship and short range is not limiting her to operate in Northern Europe and the Mediterranean. She has a little weak deck armour however hititng targets over 5000 yards is now out of question.
And she is very cheap, less than 15000 tons. The battleship for 52M being still superior to any foreign designs seems as quite effective.
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Post by akosjaccik on Jun 4, 2019 17:12:09 GMT -6
Looks promising and rational!
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Post by dorn on Jun 4, 2019 18:01:38 GMT -6
I have just looking for possibilities with Gueydon battleship and scrapping is only one of them.
The second one is quite interesting to refit ship to armoured cruiser for 27M to 23 knots or 33M to 24 knots. For much lower price than Edgar Quinet, Gueydon could have almost same firepower but quite superior armour protection.
note: 23 knots version refit
I will check it after war but probably too late for the ship to be useful. Still interesting.
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Post by dorn on Jun 5, 2019 10:52:22 GMT -6
I decided not to proceed with refit as I can build 6x8" armoured cruiser with 23 knots with similar protection for 40M. So refit is not cost effective. And as Germany has only 1 battleship, I decided scrap Gueydon immediately as I have not use for her.
Gueydon battleship - ship with the shortest life - 5/1901-9/1905
It can be seen that ship was completely failure however she was completely success. She was laid down in 19th century, commissioned in February 1901 joining fleet in May. She was important part of fleet participating in all most important battles earning her 4 battlestars
5/1904 - Operation Jutland - French fleet try to intercept Germany fleet in night without success 7/1904 - Operation Norway - Gueydon was tasked to intercept shipping near Norway but without success 11/1904 - Battle of Borkum Riff - the most important moment when Gueydon participating on sinking of German battleship 2/1905 - Operation German Bight - unsuccessful sweep of French fleet 3/1905 - Operation Texel - unsuccessful patrol of Netherland coast 6/1905 - Operation Dogger Bank - unsuccessful sweep at Dogger Bank 9/1905 - Battle of German Bight - swang song of Gueydon, she was most important ship in fleet to achieve sinking of German battleship. During pursuit of German battleship her forward singl 10" gun made several hits slowing down German battleship to allow French fleet to catch and sink German battleship. 9/1905 - order to scrap her
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