|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 11:37:09 GMT -6
If this is a naval wargame where we control the design and building of the fleets, deployment of the fleets and operations, then we, as the military do not control the allocation of resources. That is the prevue of the government. The military submits its requirements, the government, decides who will get the necessary allocated resources. These include natural, imported and human. An example of this is the Reorganization Act of 1939 in the US. The reorg grouped the possible future war effort into the Bureau of Budget, National Resources Planning Board, Liaison office of Personnel Management and many others. One of the main offices was that of Production management. its responsibility was to compel priority in delivery of Army and Navy orders.
I do not believe that a resource level is required, it will over complicate this game.
|
|
|
Post by dizzy on Jun 4, 2019 11:56:51 GMT -6
I do not believe that a resource level is required, it will over complicate this game. It's why Pearl Harbor got bombed. The Japanese had 93% of their oil cut off abruptly. This forced Japan to take the Dutch East Indies. In RTW2 none of this is modeled. I'd like to see some sort of abstracted layer of management more than what is offered.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 12:02:14 GMT -6
I do not believe that a resource level is required, it will over complicate this game. It's why Pearl Harbor got bombed. The Japanese had 93% of their oil cut off abruptly. This forced Japan to take the Dutch East Indies. In RTW2 none of this is modeled. I'd like to see some sort of abstracted layer of management more than what is offered. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was designed to destroy our battle fleet so that it could not interfere with the Southern Operation. This operation was designed to take the South Pacific including Malaya, Indonesia, New Guinea, Philippines, Borneo to gain the necessary natural resources Japan did not have to become a world power, which was her goal. Until she invaded southern Indochina, she was still getting 80% of her oil from the US. The Japanese operations in China were not using much of the oil that the nation had received because the Army did not use many gasoline powered vehicles. It was the Japanese Navy that required it and she is the one who created the Southern Operation because she was not getting her share of the budget. This whole issue was a budget fight between the Army and Navy. The IJN was using our War Plan Orange as a guide for the strategic planning, which called for our fleet to arrive at Pearl Harbor then sail across the Pacific for the decisive battle. This whole plan fell apart in the '20's and '30's. It was disestablished in 1940 . Our fleet did not have the speed nor the tankers to complete such a maneuver. The Pearl Harbor attack was a wasted effort.
|
|
|
Post by dizzy on Jun 4, 2019 12:26:08 GMT -6
Still, the reason we got bombed was because the Philippines and Pearl were between them and the oil fields they needed to survive. Japan was resource poor. It was expand or die. We told them to die. They attacked. Period.
|
|
|
Post by alsadius on Jun 4, 2019 12:29:59 GMT -6
Still, the reason we got bombed was because the Philippines and Pearl were between them and the oil fields they needed to survive. Japan was resource poor. It was expand or die. We told them to die. They attacked. Period. Well, there was the third option of "stop invading people and buy your resources in the open market". Seems to have worked pretty well for them in the last ~70 years, but they weren't willing to try back in 1941. More's the pity.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 12:36:32 GMT -6
Still, the reason we got bombed was because the Philippines and Pearl were between them and the oil fields they needed to survive. Japan was resource poor. It was expand or die. We told them to die. They attacked. Period. They could have conducted the Southern Operation with our fleet at Pearl and would have had no interference. Halsey did not take the battleships because they were too slow and he did not have the fuel tankers to keep them sailing. The First Striking Fleet could have sent the fifth Carrier group south with the invasion forces to provide air cover while the first and second Carrier Groups stayed in the Bonin's. In fact, one of those groups could have provided air cover at Wake Island initially and the island would have been taken much quicker. They did not need the oil fields to survive. The IJN had two years of fuel stored in tanks in southern Japan. The nation as a whole used very little oil. What they got from us was more than adequate for their needs.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 12:39:20 GMT -6
Still, the reason we got bombed was because the Philippines and Pearl were between them and the oil fields they needed to survive. Japan was resource poor. It was expand or die. We told them to die. They attacked. Period. Well, there was the third option of "stop invading people and buy your resources in the open market". Seems to have worked pretty well for them in the last ~70 years, but they weren't willing to try back in 1941. More's the pity. Yup, that would have worked better. Yamamoto actually stated that "all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with resolve". It was known that in Congress and the nation there was a sentiment not to interfere with what was going on in the South Pacific. We were already to give the Philippines their independence and the rest belong to the French, Dutch and the British. Pearl Harbor was a very stupid overreaction to, an already defunct plan. For the US, maintaining those slow battleships in Pearl Harbor was also a stupid maneuver as they were not going to scare the Japanese one bit, which was the goal.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 12:56:25 GMT -6
The Japanese produced 2.7 million barrels of oil domestically. They got another 1 million barrels from Korea and Manchuria. They got another 1 million barrels from Formosa. In 1941, before Pearl Harbor, she was still obtaining 60% of her oil from the US. If she had stayed out of the Axis alliance, the Dutch might have sold her some oil also.
In 1942 the Japanese Army, Navy and Civilian economy needed: 5.7 million barrels, 17.6 million barrels, 12.6 million barrels. Her annual production including synthetic was 6.4 million barrels. Her total requirements in that year were 35.9 million barrels, her deficit was 29.5 million barrels.
Anyway, my stance is that we do not need another level of complications. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by dizzy on Jun 4, 2019 13:34:38 GMT -6
Well, there was the third option of "stop invading people and buy your resources in the open market". Seems to have worked pretty well for them in the last ~70 years, but they weren't willing to try back in 1941. More's the pity. Yup, that would have worked better. Yamamoto actually stated that "all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with resolve". It was known that in Congress and the nation there was a sentiment not to interfere with what was going on in the South Pacific. We were already to give the Philippines their independence and the rest belong to the French, Dutch and the British. Pearl Harbor was a very stupid overreaction to, an already defunct plan. For the US, maintaining those slow battleships in Pearl Harbor was also a stupid maneuver as they were not going to scare the Japanese one bit, which was the goal. I read a treatise on the economy between Japan and the United States at the time this oil fiasco was playing out and basically it stated that when dealing with mature technologies, and all other things being mostly equal, the larger economy will always prevail. It went on to basically ask, WTF were the Japanese thinking? So, oldpop2000, there's already an abstracted oil function in the game... would you even consider having it expanded or detailed even a little to satisfy requests that it have more of an impact in the game, and how could that feature be improved or changed from what it is now?
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 13:44:47 GMT -6
Yup, that would have worked better. Yamamoto actually stated that "all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with resolve". It was known that in Congress and the nation there was a sentiment not to interfere with what was going on in the South Pacific. We were already to give the Philippines their independence and the rest belong to the French, Dutch and the British. Pearl Harbor was a very stupid overreaction to, an already defunct plan. For the US, maintaining those slow battleships in Pearl Harbor was also a stupid maneuver as they were not going to scare the Japanese one bit, which was the goal. I read a treatise on the economy between Japan and the United States at the time this oil fiasco was playing out and basically it stated that when dealing with mature technologies, and all other things being mostly equal, the larger economy will always prevail. It went on to basically ask, WTF were the Japanese thinking? So, oldpop2000 , there's already an abstracted oil function in the game... would you even consider having it expanded or detailed even a little to satisfy requests that it have more of an impact in the game, and how could that feature be improved or changed from what it is now? I would agree that after the game starts, if the nation has an oil crisis that this could affect how this nation can manage its naval forces and operation. An oil crisis can be derived from political issues internally, possible disruption in internal oil production like a fire that destroys a cracking plant or just an oil field fire. It could also go the other direction. Possibly a discovery of more oil underground could spur the growth of the national oil supplies. It could be implemented with random events, and the gamer has to make a decision, a simple yes or no, on how to handle it. The game could provide two or three alternative ways of handling the crisis, the gamer chooses the one to implement. If it is a crisis, possibly a decision to go to another nation to make up the difference, or if it is a new discovery either in a new field or new technology, the new supply could be used to increase the naval budget. KISS is the my view.
|
|
|
Post by brygun on Jun 4, 2019 15:03:02 GMT -6
Not really wanting the multi-resource management for Rule the Waves. That exists in the Hearts of Iron games already. For RtW I'm supposed to be the Admiral not the Minister of Industry. The oil layer makes sense as it was a vital change into the dreadnaught era. Most of the others, espically steel, is a bulk good traded heavily across the world. What matters is the quality of treatment of the steel and a few rare minerals to make alloys with. RTW largely has those technologies embraced in the research system as your nation figures out new ways of doing more with steel (which is afterall iron with a certain degree of carbon in it and carbon grows on trees).
|
|
|
Post by griffin01 on Jun 4, 2019 15:19:33 GMT -6
oldpop2000 Wasn't the embargo in response to the Chinese "incident" and how Japan was handling it? Madame Chiang really did her best in obtaining support both from American population and parliament.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 15:42:12 GMT -6
oldpop2000 Wasn't the embargo in response to the Chinese "incident" and how Japan was handling it? Madame Chiang really did her best in obtaining support both from American population and parliament. California was the only state capable of producing oil that could be exported to Japan. As you should know, Japan had limited tanker capacity. The embargo of oil to Japan had been advocated as early as 1940 by Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior. The Roosevelt Administration stated that the reduction in oil to Japan was because of the shortage of oil on the east coast, which was fictitious. The first real oil embargo was the dollar freeze on Japanese funds in our banks. This was as a result of the Japanese invasion of Southern Indochina on or about 24 July 1941. On July 31, 1941, oil export licenses were revoked for Japan. The bartering and financial dealings actually dwindled between the aforementioned date and Pearl Harbor but essentially, the freeze on Japanese assets in our banks and revocation of their oil licenses was the point at which oil shipments to Japan stopped. The freeze of her financial assets and cutoff of oil was a result of the occupation of airfields in and around Saigon, in Southern Indochina. From those airfields, bombers were able to support the invasion of Malaya, attack the Philippines and sink two British warships. Remember that the Second Sino-Japanese War began in 1937 when China started to resist completely the Japanese expansion of its territory. This was important to the US as China was one of our most important importers of our goods and we did not want the Japanese territorial expansion to spread to SE Asian. This was essentially our reason for the Vietnam war, to resist the spread of Chinese Communism. The so-called Domino Effect.
|
|
|
Post by vasious on Jun 4, 2019 22:25:51 GMT -6
I am not sure arguing over oil which is already modelled in game after a fashion is an argument for other war materials like steel.
and I am inclined to agree with oldpop2000 The player is in charge of the Navy not the country and resources are accounted for by the budget and events of delays, and the army getting more of the budget, which could well represent the Army getting priority in steel as well
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 4, 2019 22:57:20 GMT -6
I am not sure arguing over oil which is already modelled in game after a fashion is an argument for other war materials like steel. and I am inclined to agree with oldpop2000 The player is in charge of the Navy not the country and resources are accounted for by the budget and events of delays, and the army getting more of the budget, which could well represent the Army getting priority in steel as well For naval ships, oil is vital, but so is iron ore, nickel, chromium, manganese and few other ores that make up armor plate. Silicon, carbon from coal, molybdenum, copper, vanadium. Now, not all these were needed or available in the period of RTW2. Rubber for bushings, tubes etc., copper again for wiring, and the list goes on. But oil is the most vital and the one natural resource that most nations don't have. The US and Russia were the only nations that had an internal source of oil. England needed the US and was developing the Middle Eastern oil. Germany needed Romania. France needed the US and the Far East. Italy needed the US. There is always a battle between the Army and the Navy for resources, even in the US. The World supply of oil in WW2 came from six different locations. The USSR in the Caspian Sea and the Volga River oil deposits Persia and Iraq under British Rule U.S.A. Mexico Dutch East Indies - Borneo was a large producer of oil and this is why the IJN station most of its fleet at Singapore to get to oil supplies at Borneo. The Danube basin in Romania but some smaller fields in Hungary and Austria GLOBAL PETROLEUM PRODUCTION 1939 USA...................................60.4% Latin America......................15.4% (inc British Caribbean) USSR................................ 10.6% Iraq & Persia (Iran)............... 5.4% Dutch East Indies..................2.7% Romania...............................2.4% Other British Empire................2.0% (Malaysia, Burma & British Borneo) Interesting item is that the Italians were sitting on the Libyan oil fields before WW1 and never knew it or tried to find it. That would have changed the game. Another variable is the constituents in the oil. Oils are different around the world. The oil in Borneo is very sulfurous and must be processed heavily, while Pennsylvania crude is much cleaner to use. The Dutch damaged the processing plants in Borneo so the Japanese had to use the oil right out of the ground and this will ruin an engine. Here is a link that will explain briefly the three types of oil from around the world. Another variable. oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/A-Detailed-Guide-On-The-Many-Different-Types-Of-Crude-Oil.html# My goal is not to confuse or draw this discussion from its direction, but to provide facts to be able to make the proper recommendations to the team. Sorry if I am boring everyone.
|
|