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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 14, 2015 11:51:58 GMT -6
If you examine Fulda Gap, you will see that it isn't good CAS country. It is situated in the Harz Mountains with dense forests and lots of hills for the Soviets to catch CAS aircraft in crossfires from gun systems stationed on the sides of the hills and missiles. The main highway is Highway 66 which connects Fulda to Frankfurt. Here is a good link that has deployments and topography to illustrate the problem for the A-10's or any aircraft conducting CAS. www.1-33rdar.org/centralfront.htm
This is a far cry from the sandy flat deserts of Iraq. Just to note, I was able to read defense intelligence reports in the service and I did learn a lot about Soviet strategy and capability. Fulda's importance was very simple; it was the shortest route to the Rhine which would have allowed the Russians to get behind the North German Plain. Here is an excerpt from a book title "Conventional Forces and American Defense Policy;" The most threatening . . . would be an attack from the Thüringen Bulge through the Fulda Gap, aimed at Frankfurt. Except for the Fulda River, the terrain on this axis should not greatly hinder the movement of large armored forces. Importantly, this axis cuts across the ‘wasp-waist’ or the narrowest section of [West] Germany. The distance from the inter-German border to Frankfurt is a mere 100 km [62 miles]. Frankfurt, because of its central location in [West] Germany’s communications network, would be a most attractive target. Capturing Frankfurt would effectively cut [West] Germany in half, and given the importance of north-south lines of communication, would leave NATO’s forces in southern Germany isolated.
The general consensus of the A-10 pilots was that most would not survive in this theatre. The A-10's would operate from forward operating locations closer to the Warsaw Pact/NATO border. BTW the A-10s also had SAR responsibilities which would also contribute to losses. This was practiced at Nellis. I want to remind all of us, that the men and women who fly these birds have families and want to survive to see them. They understand the risks and gladly accept them. But we should try to develop platforms and weapons that can reduce the risk, not make it worse. If by eliminating the A-10 we can reduce the losses on CAS missions then that is path we should take.
Just to note: As of 1989, Air Defense of Ground Forces for the Russians operated 5000 SAM's and 12, 000 AAA guns organized into brigades, regiments and batteries. Combined arms and tank armies had AD brigades with SA-4s. There were also SA-8s, -15s for division level, SA-6s for division medium range and a host of others for both medium and long range support of Russian forces.
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Post by steel selachian on Apr 14, 2015 19:50:10 GMT -6
If you examine Fulda Gap, you will see that it isn't good CAS country. It is situated in the Harz Mountains with dense forests and lots of hills for the Soviets to catch CAS aircraft in crossfires from gun systems stationed on the sides of the hills and missiles. The main highway is Highway 66 which connects Fulda to Frankfurt. Here is a good link that has deployments and topography to illustrate the problem for the A-10's or any aircraft conducting CAS. www.1-33rdar.org/centralfront.htm
This is a far cry from the sandy flat deserts of Iraq. Just to note, I was able to read defense intelligence reports in the service and I did learn a lot about Soviet strategy and capability. Fulda's importance was very simple; it was the shortest route to the Rhine which would have allowed the Russians to get behind the North German Plain. Here is an excerpt from a book title "Conventional Forces and American Defense Policy;" The most threatening . . . would be an attack from the Thüringen Bulge through the Fulda Gap, aimed at Frankfurt. Except for the Fulda River, the terrain on this axis should not greatly hinder the movement of large armored forces. Importantly, this axis cuts across the ‘wasp-waist’ or the narrowest section of [West] Germany. The distance from the inter-German border to Frankfurt is a mere 100 km [62 miles]. Frankfurt, because of its central location in [West] Germany’s communications network, would be a most attractive target. Capturing Frankfurt would effectively cut [West] Germany in half, and given the importance of north-south lines of communication, would leave NATO’s forces in southern Germany isolated.
The general consensus of the A-10 pilots was that most would not survive in this theatre. The A-10's would operate from forward operating locations closer to the Warsaw Pact/NATO border. BTW the A-10s also had SAR responsibilities which would also contribute to losses. This was practiced at Nellis. I want to remind all of us, that the men and women who fly these birds have families and want to survive to see them. They understand the risks and gladly accept them. But we should try to develop platforms and weapons that can reduce the risk, not make it worse. If by eliminating the A-10 we can reduce the losses on CAS missions then that is path we should take.
Just to note: As of 1989, Air Defense of Ground Forces for the Russians operated 5000 SAM's and 12, 000 AAA guns organized into brigades, regiments and batteries. Combined arms and tank armies had AD brigades with SA-4s. There were also SA-8s, -15s for division level, SA-6s for division medium range and a host of others for both medium and long range support of Russian forces. One of the big issues with the Fulda Gap area and Central Europe in general, from what I've read, was that the hazier air would have presented a real problem for early-gen EO sensors including the seekers on the early AGM-65s. Getting close to ID targets might have been a necessity, especially as the backup options were probably dumb bombs, cluster bombs, unguided rockets, and napalm. In any case that was one of the reasons for developing the variety of submunitions (SFW, Gator, BAT) and standoff dispenser options (WCMD, JSOW, and MLRS) - if you're facing entire armies of tanks, there's not much of a need to be delicate. Using standoff delivery options to grid the entire area with submunitions and mines, while not pleasant for any civvies caught up in the mix or anyone who wants to move back in after the fighting's over, would be preferable to getting your CAS platforms shredded in a war of attrition when the other guy has the decided advantage in numbers. Funnily enough, for all the brute-force engineering the A-10 really is a "delicate" option. Given today's precision weapons options bombing large armored formations from higher altitude is a much better plan, even with something like a B-52. Where the A-10 comes in handy is in situations where there isn't a lot of hostile AA and the bad guys are in rifle range of the friendlies.
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Post by steel selachian on May 9, 2015 18:39:56 GMT -6
Figured this would be the appropriate place to post this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4LOGfuuugcLove how in some scenes you can see the pilot has written notes in grease pencil on the inside of the canopy, and in another you can see the cannon vibration shaking a rearview mirror around. In contrast to that you can see some of the upgrades that have been made to the aircraft; one is carrying a Sniper XR targeting pod and another has AIM-9X Sidewinders and the JHMCS helmet sight. The USAF is still working on getting the latter two upgrades onto the F-22.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 9, 2015 19:03:02 GMT -6
Figured this would be the appropriate place to post this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4LOGfuuugcLove how in some scenes you can see the pilot has written notes in grease pencil on the inside of the canopy, and in another you can see the cannon vibration shaking a rearview mirror around. In contrast to that you can see some of the upgrades that have been made to the aircraft; one is carrying a Sniper XR targeting pod and another has AIM-9X Sidewinders and the JHMCS helmet sight. The USAF is still working on getting the latter two upgrades onto the F-22. Nice video. Sure looks easy when no one is shooting back at you. Eh Eh
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Post by steel selachian on Apr 22, 2016 18:55:19 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 23, 2016 19:47:54 GMT -6
Well, they finally used the right bird to scare the hell out of the Chinese.
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Post by steel selachian on Apr 25, 2016 19:58:32 GMT -6
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Post by steel selachian on May 17, 2016 18:25:30 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 17, 2016 21:51:58 GMT -6
The OV-10 was good plane in Vietnam, so this isn't surprising. In Nam we were using for a FAC but with guns it could do a good job of taking out small units and equipment. With updated electronics and weaponry, It makes a potent weapon. I hope the bird is half as good. This kind of bird is excellent against insurgents.
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