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Post by yemo on Jul 4, 2019 10:22:51 GMT -6
I m curious whether AI nations with thoroughly destroyed fleets will eventually rebuild them or if they will permanently focus on submarines. It seems as if nations with worse fleets than the player (Italy, Japan) will go heavy submarine and only nations with better fleets will keep a normal fleet. On one hand, this makes sense. On the other hand it kind of ruins the immersion as it becomes obvious that the whole world revolves around the player and the AI nations are nothing more than exchangeable player opponents.
I m a bit surprised that so many fleet DDs are sunk even though France has so many ASW DDs.
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Post by aeson on Jul 4, 2019 10:37:55 GMT -6
I m curious whether AI nations with thoroughly destroyed fleets will eventually rebuild them or if they will permanently focus on submarines. They will usually rebuild a 'normal' fleet eventually, just usually not during a war.
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Post by dorn on Jul 4, 2019 10:45:22 GMT -6
I agree with aeson. But it will take years, usually 5-10. They will not start rebuilding fleet in war and they will finish construction program of submarines. They have 55 submarines, 41 under construction. For simplification I will take all are medium subs. So it means that during peace time they will have maintenance costs around 5.8M per month so quite similar to French surface fleet in peace. On top of that their budget will be used for finish construction about up to 1 year after end of war. You can easily see that rebuilding fleet in 5 years is impossible and it would take probably around 10 years to do so.
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Post by dorn on Jul 4, 2019 11:32:22 GMT -6
Personal log - the 5th of June 1927 I have just received information about strikes and anti-wars demonstrations in Germany. I hope they will end this war soon.
Our indurstry started production of elpidotar boats which can enhance our amphibious operations.
Personal log - the 20th of June 1927 Our patrolling destroyers Joigny and Espingole intercepted German destroyer and sunk her.
Personal log - the 5th of July 1927 Germany government collapsed in revolution. The communist regime has taken over. We took over Southwest Africa and Caroline Islands. Our government decrease funding for Navy giving us monthly deficit of 16M. I start some costs saving program however even with that I cannot get below deficit of 15M per month. I decided to stop construction of Languedoc and scrap her.
Personal log - the 10th of August 1927 Crusiers Forbin and Jeanne d'Arc has been commissioned. I decided to start designing of our first aicraft carrier.
Personal log - the 15th of August 1927 With the first 2 new cruisers commissioned, it is time to decide how many cruisers French Navy needs.
Southeast Asia - 21000 tons - 1xJdA, 3xChL
The Caribbean - 8000 tons - 1xJdA, 1xFra
South Pacific - 8000 tons - 1xChL, 3xFra
Indian Ocean - 4000 tons - 1xChL
West Africa - 4000 tons - 1xChL
Fleet cruisers - 3xJdA
TOTAL: 5xJdA, 7xChL
Jeanne d'Arc class cruiser ... JdA Chasseloup Laubat class cruiser ... ChL Framee class destroyer ... Fra
So I will scrap 3 Chasseloup Laubat class cruisers, the remaing ones need to be refitted.
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Post by dorn on Jul 5, 2019 0:18:05 GMT -6
Personal log - the 15th of September 1927
The final sketches of carrier design is finished. Now I expect about 4 months for detail design. Our new 16" guns seems much more potent than our current design.
Personal log - the 4th of October 1927
Cruiser Coetlogon is commissioned.
Personal log - the 11th of November 1927
Our engineers informed me that they know how to implement triple bottom to our ship designs. Cruiser Tage was commissioned 2 days ago.
Personal log - the 2nd of December 1927
Bearn has been laid down. She will have 60 aicrafts on board.
Personal log - the 5th of February 1928
Cruiser Troude was commisioned yesterday.
Personal log - the 12th of March 1928
The first 2 Chasseloup Laubaf cruisers returned to Toulon for refit. I finally decided to make minimal refit to fire control system and installation of 4 MAA.
Personal log - the 5th of May 1928
We improved our calculation of designs allowing us better shaped hull.
Personal log - the 20th of June 1928
Refitting of cruisers are going well. Today I have been informed that we are able to save some weight on our hulls by lightweight fitting. I authorized investment into port Lüderitz.
Personal log - the 12th of August 1928
I approved scrapping of 3 old Chasseloup Laubat class cruisers.
Personal log - the 5th of September 1928
Double reduction gears are invented. It would be nice for our new generation of cruisers.
Personal log - the 10th of December 1928
We have invented integral armour and AA directors.
Personal log - the 5th of January 1929
We invented more efficient hull form and improved depth charge racks. It is time to start designin our next class of cruisers.
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Post by yemo on Jul 5, 2019 9:33:06 GMT -6
The last savegame (edit: the 1927 one) confirms that everyone with lower naval budget than France is nearly exclusively building masses of submarines (not only Austria and Germany), while everyone with a higher budget than France is building a proper surface navy. It seems like the world is revolving around the French naval budget. Any response from the Admiralty with regards to the submarine craze/gap? The recent war has shown how dangerous those can be, despite the ~70 French ASW DDs.
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Post by dorn on Jul 6, 2019 7:50:43 GMT -6
The last savegame (edit: the 1927 one) confirms that everyone with lower naval budget than France is nearly exclusively building masses of submarines (not only Austria and Germany), while everyone with a higher budget than France is building a proper surface navy. It seems like the world is revolving around the French naval budget. Any response from the Admiralty with regards to the submarine craze/gap? The recent war has shown how dangerous those can be, despite the ~70 French ASW DDs.
This was exactly my strategy, to devide all naval powers to 2 categories only. This means that all naval powers behind France coud be easily kept in bay by whatever French surface fleet would be and the first rank naval powers could be dealt by more specialization.
There were losess against Germany but there are 2 things. I have never increased speding to counter that threat more than pre-war ships. And losses were not so high compared to number of enemy submarines.
Corvettes: 4 (3 submarines, 1 mine) Fleet destroyers: 13 (4 submarines, 1 mine, 8 surface ships)
Destroyer escorts: 5 (4 submarines, 1 mine)
Losses by submarines were 4 fleet destroyers, 4 escort destroyers, 3 corvettes. It is not high losses against later operating over 60 submarines. Germany lost dozens of submarines.
French fleet has: 19 corvettes 77 destroyer escorts
22 fleet destroyers
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Post by yemo on Jul 6, 2019 9:30:15 GMT -6
dornIt just seems odd that from tensions, Japan looks to be by far the most likely next opponent, yet the French fleet buildup seems to be aimed at a strong, balanced surface fleet. The German surface fleet was crushed by France. Japan has a similar capital ship fleet compared to Germany before the war, but France will have a much stronger capital ship fleet (with the 3 new BBs and 1 1/2 fleet carriers). The German cruiser fleet was crushed by France. Japan has only 2! CLs, much fewer than Germany had, but France now has 5 new CLs replacing 6 old CLs. The only French cruiser losses were old CLs that were on the wrong mission type (AF instead of TP) for their capabilities. The only real threat were German submarines. Now Japan has twice as many subs (120) from the start, than Germany had at the end (60). While France has not built any DDs, being down to ~70 ASW DDs vs ~120 subs, from ~70 ASW DDs vs ~60 subs against Germany.
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Post by dorn on Jul 6, 2019 12:00:06 GMT -6
dorn It just seems odd that from tensions, Japan looks to be by far the most likely next opponent, yet the French fleet buildup seems to be aimed at a strong, balanced surface fleet. The German surface fleet was crushed by France. Japan has a similar capital ship fleet compared to Germany before the war, but France will have a much stronger capital ship fleet (with the 3 new BBs and 1 1/2 fleet carriers). The German cruiser fleet was crushed by France. Japan has only 2! CLs, much fewer than Germany had, but France now has 5 new CLs replacing 6 old CLs. The only French cruiser losses were old CLs that were on the wrong mission type (AF instead of TP) for their capabilities. The only real threat were German submarines. Now Japan has twice as many subs (120) from the start, than Germany had at the end (60). While France has not built any DDs, being down to ~70 ASW DDs vs ~120 subs, from ~70 ASW DDs vs ~60 subs against Germany. It is important to know one thing. Build up of anti-submarine force is much easier than submarine force. Righ now French fleet has 96 anti-submarine vessels. In one month notice can have additional 40 flying boats. With investment of 6M per month (nothing out of possibility) in war French fleet can have increase anti-submarine force by 10 vessels per month starting from the 3rd month in war. I do not expect so heavy losses of destroyers by surface ships as French fleet has light cruisers than would help situation and take part of the burdern from destroyers.
I do not think that French fleet is unprepared for anti-submarine war, especially as one third of Japan submarine force is coastal subs.
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Post by dorn on Jul 6, 2019 13:34:46 GMT -6
Personal log - the 5th of February 1929 One of my Admirals recommend to use swivel torpedo mounts on all ships. I have some doubt it would be useful on heavy ships but I will keep it in mind.
Personal log - the 2nd of March 1929 I have just approved studies for Émile Bertin class cruiser. She would quite powerful and I expect they will be useful at least 2 decades. I need to think how many of them we need.
Personal log - the 5th of April 1929 I have just returned from meeting with Primer Minister. I am still shocked. USA has proposed five year security arrangement. Off course, I told Prime Minister we should signed. I use it to our advantage and buy Douglas Seagul C dive bomber and create one squadron on board Vosges.
Personal log - the 20th of May 1929 I have just meeting with President of Goodyear. He told me that they have prepared with Douglas plans for airship that can carry 2 small fighers on board. Quite intersting idea, may be I will approved one naval airship station.
Personal log - the 25th of May 1929 Plan for new cruiser is ready, I order the first ship of that class.
Personal log - the 5th of June 1929 I have just approved refitting Fauconneau class destroyers with increased DC storage and installatio of central rangefinder. As it is my last year in office, I decided not to invest any money into Napoleon and let decide my successor about their fate. They can still fulfil their job as secondary capital ship. La Galissonnière was ordered 3 days ago.
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Post by dorn on Jul 8, 2019 17:09:34 GMT -6
Personal log - the 2nd of July 1929 I have ordered to prepare design for new class of aicraft carrier. It should be ready in 4 months.
Personal log - the 5th of July 1929 I have just received new from Parliament. They are quite scared by Japanese battleships and authorized more funds for navy.
Personal log - the 12th of July 1929 Our science mission in USA has bought technology of turbo electric drive and our scientists developed advanced penetrator alloys.
Personal log - the 4th of August 1929 Flandre and Gascoigne have been commissioned. They are our most powerful battleships.
Personal log - the 12th of August 1929 Our science mission in USA has bought addional technology - better capacity of batteries.
Personal log - the 20th of August 1929
I have just read report from Admiral Aeson recommending better aicraft handling practices. Some of them are has been used on board of Vosges but some of them are suggesting design change. I decide to incorporate them into new design of aicraft carrier.
Personal log - the 27th of August 1929 I ordered Jean de Vienne of Émile Bertin class cruiser.
Personal log - the 10th of September Normandie have been commissioned.
Personal log - the 5th of October Some changes has been implemented to Joffrey class aicraft carrier. She has been enlarged to 28000 tons. The works on detailed drawings has been started. She has speed of 30 knots, 100 aicrafts, excellent torpedo protection (TDS lvl 4), belt protected by 2.5" armour and hangar deck by 1.5" armour.
Personal log - the 11th of November Our new carrier Bearn has been commissioned. She has starting working up.
Personal log - the 31st of December My days in this office are over. I have just finished my meeting with Admiral Blothorn who are taking this position starting tommorow. If I look at this 5 years, I can see that there has been done a lot of work. French fleet is now modern capable of operating in whole world. We have 5 battleship, from this 3 are the finest and fastest battleships in the world, we have 3 battlecruisers, one of best battlecruisers in the world surpassed only by Royal Navy most modern Niobe class, 2 aicraft carriers which can carry 102 aicrafts and another design for 100 aicraft carrier in preparation. Our cruiser force are modernized by 5 modern light cruisers with additional 3 general cruisers in construction. Only USN 3 Galveston class cruisers are capable to fight Jeanne d'Arc class crusiers and still will be no match for our Émile Bertin class cruisers under construction. We have still quite large anti-submarine force and our fleet destroyers are still quite modern. Overall we have small but very modern fleet.
Attachments:Game9_193001_end.7z (278.82 KB)
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Post by Blothorn on Jul 10, 2019 10:16:21 GMT -6
Strategic assessment
Threats: The most likely opponent at the moment is Japan, with moderately high tensions. European tensions are low for the time being, but due to proximity-driven tensions I cannot discount the possibility for future conflicts. An alliance with the USA means that Japan is also the only overseas threat in the medium term.
Comparison of assets:
Ships of the line: Great Britain has a decisive lead in capital ships, with 1150kt to our 325kt. Only eight of their 35 capital ships can keep speed with Normandie/Tourville/Dunkerque classes, but all of those are heavily armed modern battlecruisers. Aside from our ally the USA, Japan is the only other navy with a credible capital force, two modern battleships and four obsolete battlecruisers (11-12" guns). I lean toward scrapping the Napoleons; their 23-knot speed would make them a liability against Great Britain, and they are superfluous against any other opponent.
Carriers: Again excepting the USA, only Great Britain has a carrier built, with France holding a decisive lead: two CVs and a CVL totalling 110 aircraft against a Royal Navy CV and CVL totalling 51 aircraft. Germany, Austria Hungary, and Japan all have CVLs under construction, all of which would likely give them an advantage in the sub-category. Carriers is a likely building priority, as aerial superiority would be essential to a war against the United Kingdom's overwhelming battleline. CVLs are the primary weakness of the French navy; our one CVL is a 20-knotter carrying 8 aircraft, suitable for convoy escort but not fleet duty.
Cruisers: Germany and Italy are building a CA of unknown capability; otherwise only the US has CAs of any type. Once the German and Italian cruisers are completed I shall consider a response, but the type is insufficiently critical to attempt to pre-empt before knowing their capabilities. For CLs, France has six of the slow but powerful Chasseloup Laubat class, five of the fast Jeanne d'Arc (lightly armed, but still superior to open-mount CLs), and three of the well-balanced Emile Bertin class due to be commissioned next year. This amounts to a decisive superiority over all countries except the US and Great Britain, with Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and Japan claiming four old open-mount CLs between them. Great Britain claims 20 CLs, but all open-mount designs inferior to all ours in a straight fight (although all theirs can outrun the Chasseloup Laubat class). This is not an immediate building priority, although I intend to reserve the slow CLs for foreign stations and replace them as able.
Destroyers: France leads the world in number and tonnage of destroyers, although most of those are ASW types. Great Britains Ouse class, due to be commissioned this year, are likely to outgun all our destroyers.
Naval aircraft: while Great Britain has few carriers, they seem to have invested heavily in air bases, with 336 aircraft above their carrier complements. France is second to last in total number of air groups, even relying on wartime training to fill her meagre capacity of 40 land-based aircraft. Both capacity and trained complement will have to be rectified when possible.
Summary Against all navies except Great Britain and the USA France enjoys comfortable superiority in all major categories; I thus think the alliance with the USA should be maintained if reasonably possible and building should be tailored to the worst-case of a war against Great Britain. Given their insurmountable lead in ships of the line, this means focusing on carriers and land-based air along the channel while avoiding battles that play to their advantage.
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Post by Blothorn on Jul 10, 2019 10:45:34 GMT -6
First actions In preparation for a possible war with Japan, I ordered construction of an airbase at Bayard. I did not initiate any ship design, as the CV designed by my predecessor would consume all budget for the next year and while modern CVLs were a far higher priority than another fleet carrier, I wished to allow his final building program to reach completion. In assessing research priorities I increased that of fire control, anti-aircraft artillery, and naval aviation, while decreasing that of penetrator alloys. I scrapped the Napoleons; while they consumed little funds mothballed, they served no role in any foreseeable conflict and were respectively past due and shortly due for overhaul.
February 1930 I sold knowledge of aircraft handling practices to Germany and initiated construction of CV Joffre.
March 1930 I sold knowledge of TDS IV to the USA and initiated construction of CV Joffre. Aircraft manufacturers returned proposals for a new fighter; these were disappointing, with improvements in maneuverability and durability over the Potez 76 B but worse range, firepower, and negligible improvement in speed. I ordered the best balance to see if they could find improvements in productionizing it. I requested proposals for a torpedo bomber focusing on range and reliability.
April 1930 A private-venture medium bomber offered a 15% range increase over the Loire 94 without drawback; I ordered it. Parliament increased naval funding by about 1100 in response to the threat by Japan; this provided enough surplus to consider building a modern CVL immediately, and I requested a design study.
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Post by dorn on Jul 10, 2019 13:13:38 GMT -6
Carriers: Again excepting the USA, only Great Britain has a carrier built, with France holding a decisive lead: two CVs and a CVL totalling 110 aircraft against a Royal Navy CV and CVL totalling 51 aircraft. Germany, Austria Hungary, and Japan all have CVLs under construction, all of which would likely give them an advantage in the sub-category. Carriers is a likely building priority, as aerial superiority would be essential to a war against the United Kingdom's overwhelming battleline. CVLs are the primary weakness of the French navy; our one CVL is a 20-knotter carrying 8 aircraft, suitable for convoy escort but not fleet duty. There is another design of carrier in preparation, it has been already updated by latest technology increasing capabilities significantly. Heavy cruisers are quite expensive with a price about 60M. For 2 and half such cruiser, you can have fast battleship. As French Navy will have quite powerfull fleet of light cruisers and destroyers, they probably do not need heavy cruisers. Heavy cruisers in fleet engagement does not provide any advantage as they cannot do anything more than light cruisers as scouting. And if heavy cruiser is intercepted by light cruisers with destroyers, light cruisers with destroyers have higher chance at night and during day, they have enough speed to choose time of engagement. I think it is possible to have no heavy cruisers and use that funds on other ships without any difficulty. note: Jeanne d'Arc is lighty armed but still is the most powerful light cruiser in the world with American Galveston class.
Issue is that heavy cruiser design as used by WNT has very little advantage over light cruiser as armour is not thick enough to protect against 6". And if you design heavy cruiser with 10" guns and properly armoured, tonnage goes up quite quickly making heavy cruiser much more expensive over light cruiser and giving no significant advantage with capabilities over light cruiser.
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Post by Blothorn on Jul 10, 2019 15:23:35 GMT -6
I have found CAs quite useful; the game does generate CA-max battles, so having no CAs means a fair few CL-vs-CA battles (where BC vs CA battles are relatively rare as long as the enemy also has BCs). And sure, on paper CAs are rarely armored against 6" fire, but at long range the CA's accuracy wins out, usually decisively in my experience. And picking battles not only requires ensuring all your CLs are faster than the enemy CAs, but often allows an inferior enemy to avoid blockade or invasion longer by slowing attrition of his ships. To be clear, CAs are not my top priority, but I find the argument for ignoring them entirely somewhat short-sighted.
CVL design studies: All have no main battery, roughly 15/20/3 AA, 34 aircraft, 2" belt, 1" deck, and 3" CT. - Variant A: 14,000t, 30 knots, TDS2, cost 39,763. - Variant B: speed increased to 32 knots: 16,000t, cost 48,950. - Variant C: 30 knots, TDS3: 15,000t, cost 41,414. - Variant D: 30 knots, TDS4: 15,500t, cost 42,129. 6% cost for TDS4 seemed reasonable, so I commissioned a detailed design of variant D as the Arromanches class.
May 1930 CVL Amiral Cecille and all ships of the Horizon class require a machinery overhaul; the CVL was scrapped as obsolete and the destroyers rebuilt with additional depth charges and an AA gun replacing the aft torpedo mount.
June 1930 Sold improved depth charge racks to Germany. Started expansion of the Bayard airbase, and started training a flying boat and medium bomber squadron there. Started building the CVL Arromanches.
August 1930 The admiralty approved a suggestion for 2000t destroyers, although there is no budget to contemplate a new class at this time. Tensions with Japan cooled, now exceeded by tensions with Great Britain. The budget increased by an additional 1200 credits per month, a surplus of 224 now going toward rebuilding a reserve.
November 1930 Selected a new torpedo bomber offering a 20% increase in range along with superior speed and agility over the Potez 87. Requested proposals for a new fighter, in light of the disappointing previous round.
January 1931 The Emile Bertin is commissioned, achieving 32 knots on trials (exceeding design by one knot). I ordered a second ship of the Arromanches class.
Catching up in intelligence reports, the UK's new class was revealed to have a powerful armament of 10x16" guns, but to only be capable of 23 knots--further reinforcing the desirability of scrapping our own 23-knotters. Japan has started constructing three more CVLs (all 10,200-10,500 tons), and intelligence reports that their first carriers 22 aircraft. The German Scharnhorst class CA is revealed to carry 6 11" guns and 8 6" guns, with a 31-knot top speed and 3.5" belt. It easily outclasses all our CLs, and can chase down all but the just-commissioned Emile Bertin while outrunning all our capital ships.
February 1931 I ordered a third Arromanches, to be built with budget freed by the commissioning of the second Emile Bertin. Tensions with Great Britain have subsided.
March 1931 The Prime Minister requested three additional battleships. I assented to the request, thinking it better to start construction and then plead that changing circumstances required changing the order rather than directly challenge his judgment. Budget available is 115 (with 4022 available by cancelling the two recently laid down CVLs), with 24,146 in reserve.
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