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Post by stevethecat on Jun 6, 2019 5:42:59 GMT -6
Monitors fit nicely into the games time frame with use through WW1 and into WW2, they weren't especially useful but could still a bit of quirk and flavour.
While you can just about build one as an artificial battleship it doesn't quite match the oddballness of these ships.
They were stubby, slow and ungainly platforms that traded just about everything to be a stable platform for typically massive guns.
So a hull that would have poor speed qualities, a short form for a single main gun. On the plus side that gun would be more reliable, perhaps with a touch more range than it would normally have in a conventional ship.
They wouldn't be great, but would be fun to see.
Thanks.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 9:47:47 GMT -6
Monitors fit nicely into the games time frame with use through WW1 and into WW2, they weren't especially useful but could still a bit of quirk and flavour. While you can just about build one as an artificial battleship it doesn't quite match the oddballness of these ships. They were stubby, slow and ungainly platforms that traded just about everything to be a stable platform for typically massive guns. So a hull that would have poor speed qualities, a short form for a single main gun. On the plus side that gun would be more reliable, perhaps with a touch more range than it would normally have in a conventional ship. They wouldn't be great, but would be fun to see. Thanks. 5000t ship with a 20" gun, I like it! And maybe it could have an effect like mine sweepers on mining events. Each monitor would increase the invasion and land battle success chance. The requirements should be something like: -speed <21 knts -1 main gun over 5" calibre -compulsory short range -6" belt armour max -the 5% max free weight applies -Low freeboard -max 2 heavy secondaries (>10") or any number of small (<5") secondaries -a couple of AAs allowed They'd be more of a strategic unit, like corvettes. |
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Post by stevethecat on Jun 6, 2019 10:23:28 GMT -6
Well they could have a bit more in the way of armour and secondaries but it wouldn't be a great deal past a heavy CL.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 11:09:24 GMT -6
Well they could have a bit more in the way of armour and secondaries but it wouldn't be a great deal past a heavy CL. Upon research, I think more secondaries would be a historical idea. But they tended to have either a couple of very heavy secondaries (almost part of a mixed main battery) or lots of very small, destroyer-like guns. This would have to be allowed for in the coding. As for armour, they seemed to be armoured like small cruisers so maybe a max of 6" belt? |
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 6, 2019 11:42:38 GMT -6
They generally don't have superior range compared to line battleships because there generally isn't any superior fire-control/spotting mast on them(Though not necessarily worse).
They also generally all have low-freeboard and can only operate in coastal or calm waters. I'd say it might be possible to build them with better seakeeping at the expense of them being much larger, at which point its really blurring the line between monitors and a B with more modern guns.
Having these unit contribute to invasion and coastal bombardment is a good idea, but generally they aren't meant to fight naval engagements and would most likely perform rather poorly in this role. They almost certainly aren't meant for fleet action, so I don't know how relevant they would be to the majority of the gameplay. It would seem quite a waste to have a wide variety of options to design them with, only for it to practically not matter since they pretty much only operate strategically like KEs.
Im not against their inclusion but I think they would need more of an role if they are involved besides giving behind the scene bonus. For example, having quiet a few monitors in an area where enemy have a possession can trigger a special land bombardment mission where your monitors are bombarding multiple land targets with your main fleet charged with protecting them, successful bombardment will net you more points than normal bombardment missions(and if you want, the main fleet can help the monitors out), but the monitors themselves will also be vulnerable to enemy battle fleets.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 12:46:31 GMT -6
They generally don't have superior range compared to line battleships because there generally isn't any superior fire-control/spotting mast on them(Though not necessarily worse). They also generally all have low-freeboard and can only operate in coastal or calm waters. I'd say it might be possible to build them with better seakeeping at the expense of them being much larger, at which point its really blurring the line between monitors and a B with more modern guns. Having these unit contribute to invasion and coastal bombardment is a good idea, but generally they aren't meant to fight naval engagements and would most likely perform rather poorly in this role. They almost certainly aren't meant for fleet action, so I don't know how relevant they would be to the majority of the gameplay. It would seem quite a waste to have a wide variety of options to design them with, only for it to practically not matter since they pretty much only operate strategically like KEs. Im not against their inclusion but I think they would need more of an role if they are involved besides giving behind the scene bonus. For example, having quiet a few monitors in an area where enemy have a possession can trigger a special land bombardment mission where your monitors are bombarding multiple land targets with your main fleet charged with protecting them, successful bombardment will net you more points than normal bombardment missions(and if you want, the main fleet can help the monitors out), but the monitors themselves will also be vulnerable to enemy battle fleets. How about using them in invasion battles where you've got to destroy 8 or so land targets before the landing craft can go in? Obviously, it would be in range of shore batteries so this mechanic could also make them worthwhile as well. This would make it a two stage invasion - the fleet protecting the transports and the monitors destroying defences. As they're low freeboard, they can get closer into the beach. Another mission could be a naval port bombardment. Protected by cruisers, a fleet of monitors could bombard a port with a successful battle destroying or damaging further repairing or building ships. |
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 6, 2019 12:58:28 GMT -6
They generally don't have superior range compared to line battleships because there generally isn't any superior fire-control/spotting mast on them(Though not necessarily worse). They also generally all have low-freeboard and can only operate in coastal or calm waters. I'd say it might be possible to build them with better seakeeping at the expense of them being much larger, at which point its really blurring the line between monitors and a B with more modern guns. Having these unit contribute to invasion and coastal bombardment is a good idea, but generally they aren't meant to fight naval engagements and would most likely perform rather poorly in this role. They almost certainly aren't meant for fleet action, so I don't know how relevant they would be to the majority of the gameplay. It would seem quite a waste to have a wide variety of options to design them with, only for it to practically not matter since they pretty much only operate strategically like KEs. Im not against their inclusion but I think they would need more of an role if they are involved besides giving behind the scene bonus. For example, having quiet a few monitors in an area where enemy have a possession can trigger a special land bombardment mission where your monitors are bombarding multiple land targets with your main fleet charged with protecting them, successful bombardment will net you more points than normal bombardment missions(and if you want, the main fleet can help the monitors out), but the monitors themselves will also be vulnerable to enemy battle fleets. How about using them in invasion battles where you've got to destroy 8 or so land targets before the landing craft can go in? Obviously, it would be in range of shore batteries so this mechanic could also make them worthwhile as well. This would make it a two stage invasion - the fleet protecting the transports and the monitors destroying defences. As they're low freeboard, they can get closer into the beach. Another mission could be a naval port bombardment. Protected by cruisers, a fleet of monitors could bombard a port with a successful battle destroying or damaging further repairing or building ships. I think none of these missions should be monitor specific, Old Bs and BBs are historically used for these purposes and performed well. If anything monitor's slow speed and poor sea-worthiness actually limited their participation in these missions. So my main concern with monitor's inclusion is mostly their rather awkward role. If we are going to be realistic, they are not very useful to many of the countries in this game. They come down to either be a low budget bombardment missile for country with a very tight budget, or throwaway bombardment missile for countries with very high budget. From a game play perspective, low budget power will rarely be able to have a parity against other naval powers to actually make using monitors not suicidal. While high budget power can probably do Monitor's job with their main fleet more often than not. One way to remedy this may be allowing monitors to show up in small or medium sized fleet fights where as BBs and Bs will rarely do so. They are still cool to include for certain, but I am not sure if many players will find use for them compared to say, a budget coastal battleship. |
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 13:03:49 GMT -6
How about using them in invasion battles where you've got to destroy 8 or so land targets before the landing craft can go in? Obviously, it would be in range of shore batteries so this mechanic could also make them worthwhile as well. This would make it a two stage invasion - the fleet protecting the transports and the monitors destroying defences. As they're low freeboard, they can get closer into the beach. Another mission could be a naval port bombardment. Protected by cruisers, a fleet of monitors could bombard a port with a successful battle destroying or damaging further repairing or building ships. I think none of these missions should be monitor specific, Old Bs and BBs are historically used for these purposes and performed well. If anything monitor's slow speed and poor sea-worthiness actually limited their participation in these missions. So my main concern with monitor's inclusion is mostly their rather awkward role. If we are going to be realistic, they are not very useful to many of the countries in this game. They come down to either be a low budget bombardment missile for country with a very tight budget, or throwaway bombardment missile for countries with very high budget. From a game play perspective, low budget power will rarely be able to have a parity against other naval powers to actually make using monitors not suicidal. While high budget power can probably do Monitor's job with their main fleet more often than not. One way to remedy this may be allowing monitors to show up in small or medium sized fleet fights where as BBs and Bs will rarely do so. They are still cool to include for certain, but I am not sure if many players will find use for them compared to say, a budget coastal battleship. They were useful in real life, but only really to the army and concerning land battles. We need to think of a use for them beyond just bombardment for them to be useful in RTW. The invasion amplifier would be a good reason to build monitors but not really massive gun monitors as we saw in real life. Yes, it could work for them to be used in smaller battles and maybe coastal convoy raids, again in range of gun batteries. |
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 6, 2019 13:12:32 GMT -6
I think none of these missions should be monitor specific, Old Bs and BBs are historically used for these purposes and performed well. If anything monitor's slow speed and poor sea-worthiness actually limited their participation in these missions. So my main concern with monitor's inclusion is mostly their rather awkward role. If we are going to be realistic, they are not very useful to many of the countries in this game. They come down to either be a low budget bombardment missile for country with a very tight budget, or throwaway bombardment missile for countries with very high budget. From a game play perspective, low budget power will rarely be able to have a parity against other naval powers to actually make using monitors not suicidal. While high budget power can probably do Monitor's job with their main fleet more often than not. One way to remedy this may be allowing monitors to show up in small or medium sized fleet fights where as BBs and Bs will rarely do so. They are still cool to include for certain, but I am not sure if many players will find use for them compared to say, a budget coastal battleship. They were useful in real life, but only really to the army and concerning land battles. We need to think of a use for them beyond just bombardment for them to be useful in RTW. The invasion amplifier would be a good reason to build monitors but not really massive gun monitors as we saw in real life. I am not saying monitors weren't useful at all in real life. Rather, they are not useful in real life for the kinds of naval engagement that usually happens in RTW. Having them in land bombardment missions, especially smaller ones where BBs do not participate is probably best way I see them implemented. From a gameplay perspective having them being passive contributors to strategic mechanics like invasion is good and all, but it really misses the opportunity for us to customize them. (How often do you build KEs with decent armament? If something is serving a mostly abstract strategic function, it is really easy to just game the system and make most design choice irrelevant) Like you said, if they just serves as invasion multiplier, all people would do is just build "bare minimal" monitors, or if gun power influence their invasion multiper, then whatever size is most cost-effective while completely ignoring armors and secondary. Personally I'd like to see Monitor(If they are included), Larger KEs representing colonial gun boat etc having a more important role in tactical battles. I think there should be more mission types giving these ships a chance to perform. That said, I can also see how it does not necessarily make for interesting engagements (look at 500 ton destroyer battles). However, having missions where DD or KE with certain degree of armament carry out attack on Monitors being escorted with similar ships makes for interesting scenarios imo. |
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 13:23:38 GMT -6
They were useful in real life, but only really to the army and concerning land battles. We need to think of a use for them beyond just bombardment for them to be useful in RTW. The invasion amplifier would be a good reason to build monitors but not really massive gun monitors as we saw in real life. I am not saying monitors weren't useful at all in real life. Rather, they are not useful in real life for the kinds of naval engagement that usually happens in RTW. Having them in land bombardment missions, especially smaller ones where BBs do not participate is probably best way I see them implemented. From a gameplay perspective having them being passive contributors to strategic mechanics like invasion is good and all, but it really misses the opportunity for us to customize them. (How often do you build KEs with decent armament? If something is serving a mostly abstract strategic function, it is really easy to just game the system and make most design choice irrelevant) Like you said, if they just serves as invasion multiplier, all people would do is just build "bare minimal" monitors, or if gun power influence their invasion multiper, then whatever size is most cost-effective while completely ignoring armors and secondary. Personally I'd like to see Monitor(If they are included), Larger KEs representing colonial gun boat etc having a more important role in tactical battles. I think there should be more mission types giving these ships a chance to perform. That said, I can also see how it does not necessarily make for interesting engagements (look at 500 ton destroyer battles). However, having missions where DD or KE with certain degree of armament carry out attack on Monitors being escorted with similar ships makes for interesting scenarios imo. How about the invasion multiplier being proportional to the gun calibre. Also, make them a lot faster and cheaper to build than Bs. Then low budget nations can have a battle line, even if a dedicated B would be better. Even rich nations could build them if they end up going to war before they've had chance to replace sunken battleships. So they could also turn up to fleet battles like Bs, maybe even standing off like carrier groups and providing fire support to the main battle line. I think that would definitely make an 18" monitor worthwhile to build, and at the same time dissuade people from spamming tiny monitors in the sure knowledge that the range of a 6" gun supporting fire is way too close to the enemy fleet. |
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Post by aeson on Jun 6, 2019 13:25:03 GMT -6
As they're low freeboard, they can get closer into the beach. If you're using guns with ranges of ten or twenty miles, how much of a difference do you think getting a few hundred yards closer to the beach is going to make? Also, Rule the Waves doesn't really model shallow water; it's either navigable or it isn't, and if it is navigable then both a 200t "destroyer" and a 90,000t superbattleship can operate there while if it isn't then neither can.
Shore bombardment monitors weren't built so much because they're better platforms for naval gunfire support than battleships are as because they're a lot less expensive and time-consuming to build and aren't nearly as valuable for other tasks as the battleships were considered to be. Would you rather detach Queen Elizabeth from the Grand Fleet every time the army wants gunfire support in Belgium or mount a couple spare 15" guns on a barge and send that over instead? Similarly, a lot of older battleships were used for shore bombardment for pretty much exactly the same reason - they're available, they're not nearly as valuable as the more modern battleships (were perceived to be), and they're good enough for the task that they're being asked to perform.
If what you're looking to do is get in, hit the target, and get out before any hostile warships can interfere with the attack, then a slow ship like a shore bombardment monitor would be liability for such a mission, and anyways offers no real advantages - at least within the game - over using a battleship for the same purposes other than the monitor's presumably-lower value making it less of a loss if it happens to be sunk or put out of action temporarily by damage.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 6, 2019 13:34:34 GMT -6
As they're low freeboard, they can get closer into the beach. If you're using guns with ranges of ten or twenty miles, how much of a difference do you think getting a few hundred yards closer to the beach is going to make? Also, Rule the Waves doesn't really model shallow water; it's either navigable or it isn't, and if it is navigable then both a 200t "destroyer" and a 90,000t superbattleship can operate there while if it isn't then neither can.
No, I meant that monitors, because of their shallow draft could feasibly be selected for the mission over battleships. Firing at 20 mile range is a lot less accurate than firing at 6000yds, especially in the early game. Also, it's easier to do a night bombardment The draft would limit battleships in that role in the game simply by not allowing them to take part in those battles. The draft point just provides a narrative. They would obviously be much cheaper than Bs and, as I said in another post, could even help in fleet battles. The goal of these points is to make the devs introduce a way for me to make Lord Clive class monitors in RTW. |
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Post by aeson on Jun 6, 2019 13:56:42 GMT -6
The goal of these points is to make the devs introduce a way for me to make Lord Clive class monitors in RTW. Funny, I thought you already pretty much could: Both of those are legal designs, by the way, and they improve your invasion chances since they count as battleships when the game tallies up naval strengths.
The point that you're missing is that the difference in engagement range is not going to be significant enough, except possibly in certain exceptional locations, to be relevant to either accuracy or ability to penetrate the target's protection.
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