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Post by jorgencab on Jun 12, 2019 14:08:22 GMT -6
All the ships fill a role in the game and there are many ways to make use of them is my experience, they also change over the course of technology advancements. As gunnery become more and more accurate the dynamics of different ship types changes quite a bit. In the early game as Japan I have tended to design my legacy fleet with CA that are basically battle cruisers with 11" guns. Not that far from history since the Japanese did build 12" CA in 1907 and later reclassified them as battle cruisers. With 7-7.5" of armour they work both as scouts and in the core during fleet battles. They often perform independent action as well during fleet battles and often do very well in that role too. Since I usually keep a decent amount of DD around I generally go with a smaller more qualitative screening force of CL rather than smaller fleet cruisers and it works well. The smaller more numerous and cheaper CL are used for raiding and trade protection, about 2000-4000t. Fleet cruisers are generally 6000-7000t CL in the early game and not very cheap. My CA are more like battle cruiser rather than traditional CA... they are basically equal with pre-dreadnought both in cost and fire power and function very well in the battle line for the first decade or two. Not to mention how powerful they are in cruiser battles early on with 11" guns. Most countries CA have around 5" belt armour which the 11" guns rip through quite easily. Although I was quite surprised by the Russian design of 21 knot 12" monster pre-dreadnoughts in 1904 in my current game, put my armoured cruisers to shame.. ..force me to decline all fleet battles and they declined almost all cruiser actions in return. I see huge usage of the CL in all of my games in all shapes and sizes, my fleet screening cruisers always do a very good job of keeping the enemy smaller vessels away from my ship. Often armed with 8" guns they also can do some damage even on enemy pre-dreadnoughts with some luck. They also have the range to keep taking potshots at them from their screening role. Since my CL are quite powerful they do very well in cruiser actions... a pair can easily overwhelm a lone enemy CA and enemy CL rarely wants to engage them and if they do they often get sunk in the process. I use two fleet CL configurations... either the all 6" armed one with 8-10 6" guns or the one with 4x8" in turrets with 8-10 5" in casemates. Since secondaries only use local control there are no point in guns with long range in them and their role are mainly against CL and DD anyway. My smaller cruiser rarely get armed with more than 5" guns. If they are specifically built for raiding I might arm them with 6" in turrets for and aft and a large number of 4" for use against weaker CL and destroyers equally. These CL are built for numbers and economy and are not meant to take part in fleet or cruiser actions. These are also the cruisers that I arm with mines later on. CL are also very useful in night battles, especially for screening your dreadnoughts. My CL are often credited for torpedoing enemy capital ships in night battles. So the cruisers are set to screen the battle division and are then in turn supported by a destroyer division. Works really well during night action. Might also be because I as Japan always use Torpedo and Night doctrine during the opening stages of any war after which I switch to Gunnery and Torpedo doctrine.
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Post by wknehring on Jun 12, 2019 14:29:21 GMT -6
CL are the working horses untill the midgame, when airstrikes become more and more deadly for DD and CL (resulting in one shot near misses that sink your CL/DD).
My legacy CL (2" belt, 1,5" deck, 3" CT, 2"/1,5" turrets, 6x1 5" or 6" with 2 wingturrets each side and 2 sub TT, 23 knots) normally do the most work in the first war, especially than, when I am playing smaller navies like Austro Hungarian. Than these vessels are your bread and butter ships to gain VP. Once I can build 25-26 knot CL with ~6000-6500ts, the legacy CL all become trade protectors and maybe raiders in areas with own possesions. And as trade protectors they rest untill their end- the only major refit they get, is a rearmament from the heavier guns and the sub TTs to a load of 4" DP single guns and 3-4 directors with some AA. Than they become mothballed and are the future trade protectors, together with my old DDs and some specialised KEs.
In RTW1 I converted them to mine cruisers- maybe this works in a similar way in RTW2.
The last planned class of CL I build, is a lighter Atlanta-Class CL-AA: 33 knots, 4x2 5"Qu1 DP (maybe autoloader- if not I have some wheight reserves to refit them), 4x2 3"Qu1 autoloader DP, 10-12 of each AA, 2x3 broadside TT swivel mounts, maximum box-protection (3" belt, 2" deck, 2"/1,5" turrets, 3" CT). They have heavy AA, are capable scouts and stand their ground, where late game DDs get sunk/blow up in the melee. And in CV-groups with 2-3 of these CL-AA, they can withstand some smaller to medium air attacks together with your CAP and your AA specialised DDs (against 20 lategame medium bombers or dive bombers they get punished- no question).
In addition for the knife fights, I only build 8" CAs immune to 6" guns and some "Panzerschiffe" CAs with 5"/2,5" box protection and 2x3 11"Qu1 and 4x2 4" DP guns (but I guess for self defence the double amount of 3" autoloader DPs is better). Maybe with the new patch and the possibility to build 12000ts Panzersciffe, I can put some additional armour or maybe TPS2 on them.
So, CL are worth to build and they are often the link from DD to CA- the 1st ones are to small and don´t have the armour and punch to do their task and the 2nd ones often are way to expensive to get the job done- e.g. I hate convoy raids with CAs against light protected convoys with airbases in the game (I had one raid in the Mediterranian- that´s no fun anymore!) and your CA gets punished and limbs back to port with 5 knots and heavy flooding or maybe gets sunk. The CL-AA gets this job done, too but is faster and way cheaper and worth the risk.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 12, 2019 14:51:38 GMT -6
Unless there is a reason to build heavy cruisers as done pre WW2 due to some restriction in a treaty I don't build them at all after I can build battle cruisers. I rely entirely on CL and BC for my fleets for as long as I can. I also build a moderate number of BB and rely more on the other classes... especially when aircraft become more prominent in the game.
My BB often spend an inordinate number of time in mothball status. BB only roll are basically fleet actions which can either mostly be avoided if you are weaker and often can be suffered through with low losses even if you are weaker in the early game. There also is a very thin line between what is a BC and BB, I just tend to favour having them available to most missions.
CL and BC seem to be the workhorse of my fleets until the CV and CVL enter into the picture.
I would say that CL are way more useful than CA at all stages of the game, the CA fill a role that is not needed unless you are forced to build them for some reason.
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Post by nuclearmoose on Jun 12, 2019 15:02:40 GMT -6
I see CLs as an intermediate step in the food chain between destroyes and capital ships. They keep enemy destroyers from getting too close, and do so more efficiently than my own destroyers would. Of course, just having even more DDs solves the problem as well. Once you get 2500t DDs I find it to be more efficient to build these over CLs, but for most of the game CLs are great at killing small DDs and can punch above their weight in the right circumstances.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 12, 2019 16:52:22 GMT -6
I see CLs as an intermediate step in the food chain between destroyes and capital ships. They keep enemy destroyers from getting too close, and do so more efficiently than my own destroyers would. Of course, just having even more DDs solves the problem as well. Once you get 2500t DDs I find it to be more efficient to build these over CLs, but for most of the game CLs are great at killing small DDs and can punch above their weight in the right circumstances. By that stage most CL built should be closer to 8000-10000t and fulfil a much different role such as AA, mining and trade protection. Their role in battle are basically to screen your capital ships while the destroyers screen them. More or less...
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Post by ramjb on Jun 12, 2019 20:53:50 GMT -6
I see CLs as an intermediate step in the food chain between destroyes and capital ships. They keep enemy destroyers from getting too close, and do so more efficiently than my own destroyers would. Of course, just having even more DDs solves the problem as well. Once you get 2500t DDs I find it to be more efficient to build these over CLs, but for most of the game CLs are great at killing small DDs and can punch above their weight in the right circumstances. 2500t DDs are great. Great firepower, fast, heavy torpedo armament and DP heavy AAA support for your fleet. What's not to like?. But no, they don't take the place of a CL. A couple well emplaced 5'' shells in the machinery, and that fast ubergunned raceboat becomes a limping crippled turtle. There's no substitute for the 3'' of belt armor you can put on a CL. May not seem much, but in fact they mean they're pretty much invulnerable to destroyers unless on top of them. And at a stage where Destroyers carry directors, that's quite a big deal, it's the difference between your ship ignoring destroyer gunfire, or being ripped apart by it.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 13, 2019 7:13:47 GMT -6
Once you get 2500t DDs I find it to be more efficient to build these over CLs, but for most of the game CLs are great at killing small DDs and can punch above their weight in the right circumstances. 2500t DDs are great. Great firepower, fast, heavy torpedo armament and DP heavy AAA support for your fleet. What's not to like?. But no, they don't take the place of a CL. A couple well emplaced 5'' shells in the machinery, and that fast ubergunned raceboat becomes a limping crippled turtle. There's no substitute for the 3'' of belt armor you can put on a CL. May not seem much, but in fact they mean they're pretty much invulnerable to destroyers unless on top of them. And at a stage where Destroyers carry directors, that's quite a big deal, it's the difference between your ship ignoring destroyer gunfire, or being ripped apart by it. Guns on DDs are largely expensive morale boosts to the crew. They are only useful against other DDs and work basically on being lucky enough to get the first hits. When DP comes along, they're slightly better but still not great. I go mainly for speed, torpedoes and ASW on mine as torpedoes are the only weapon they have with real hitting power.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 13, 2019 10:36:22 GMT -6
2500t DDs are great. Great firepower, fast, heavy torpedo armament and DP heavy AAA support for your fleet. What's not to like?. But no, they don't take the place of a CL. A couple well emplaced 5'' shells in the machinery, and that fast ubergunned raceboat becomes a limping crippled turtle. There's no substitute for the 3'' of belt armor you can put on a CL. May not seem much, but in fact they mean they're pretty much invulnerable to destroyers unless on top of them. And at a stage where Destroyers carry directors, that's quite a big deal, it's the difference between your ship ignoring destroyer gunfire, or being ripped apart by it. Guns on DDs are largely expensive morale boosts to the crew. They are only useful against other DDs and work basically on being lucky enough to get the first hits. When DP comes along, they're slightly better but still not great. I go mainly for speed, torpedoes and ASW on mine as torpedoes are the only weapon they have with real hitting power. I don't think that is true at all... I have my destroyers using their guns quite effectively all the time. Even if they don't do massive amounts of damage against other ships or destroyers they will effect them, especially enemy destroyers. The effect of straddle or simply turning them away with gunfire is quite effective. You don't need to kill something in order to make them ineffective. The more ships rely on electronic the more effective low yield high rate of fire weapons become to damage those systems, things like fire-controls, radar etc... In my opinion overloading destroyers with torpedoes is a waste of space, you don't need that many to really be effective during a single engagement. Don't neglect the power of the 5" gun to damage and destroy secondary armament or even things like fire controls on larger enemy ships. There are many things on the superstructure that can be effected and suppresses such as AA and the like.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 13, 2019 10:43:36 GMT -6
Guns on DDs are largely expensive morale boosts to the crew. They are only useful against other DDs and work basically on being lucky enough to get the first hits. When DP comes along, they're slightly better but still not great. I go mainly for speed, torpedoes and ASW on mine as torpedoes are the only weapon they have with real hitting power. I don't think that is true at all... I have my destroyers using their guns quite effectively all the time. Even if they don't do massive amounts of damage against other ships or destroyers they will effect them, especially enemy destroyers. The effect of straddle or simply turning them away with gunfire is quite effective. You don't need to kill something in order to make them ineffective. In my opinion overloading destroyers with torpedoes is a waste of space, you don't need that many to really be effective during a single engagement. Don't neglect the power of the 5" gun to damage and destroy secondary armament or even things like fire controls on larger enemy ships. There are many things on the superstructure that can be effected and suppresses such as AA and the like. I think we'll have to disagree on this one. DD on DD fights use their guns well but in anything where another class is present relegates guns on DDs to bystanders. 5" guns may penetrate CL armour but you need a lot to do much damage. One CL can usually see off or destroy 5 DDs easily. However, torpedoes mean that nothing is safe. Anything without TPS will die and others will be crippled. That's my DD doctrine. They become useful for AA fire support later on though with DP main batteries.
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Post by dorn on Jun 13, 2019 11:31:37 GMT -6
2500t DDs are great. Great firepower, fast, heavy torpedo armament and DP heavy AAA support for your fleet. What's not to like?. But no, they don't take the place of a CL. A couple well emplaced 5'' shells in the machinery, and that fast ubergunned raceboat becomes a limping crippled turtle. There's no substitute for the 3'' of belt armor you can put on a CL. May not seem much, but in fact they mean they're pretty much invulnerable to destroyers unless on top of them. And at a stage where Destroyers carry directors, that's quite a big deal, it's the difference between your ship ignoring destroyer gunfire, or being ripped apart by it. Guns on DDs are largely expensive morale boosts to the crew. They are only useful against other DDs and work basically on being lucky enough to get the first hits. When DP comes along, they're slightly better but still not great. I go mainly for speed, torpedoes and ASW on mine as torpedoes are the only weapon they have with real hitting power. It changes in night. 4x2x5" destroyer is deadly to even heavy cruiser as her 5" guns could penetrate heavy cruiser armour at point blank range and torpedoes are even more deadly.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 13, 2019 14:43:24 GMT -6
I don't think that is true at all... I have my destroyers using their guns quite effectively all the time. Even if they don't do massive amounts of damage against other ships or destroyers they will effect them, especially enemy destroyers. The effect of straddle or simply turning them away with gunfire is quite effective. You don't need to kill something in order to make them ineffective. In my opinion overloading destroyers with torpedoes is a waste of space, you don't need that many to really be effective during a single engagement. Don't neglect the power of the 5" gun to damage and destroy secondary armament or even things like fire controls on larger enemy ships. There are many things on the superstructure that can be effected and suppresses such as AA and the like. I think we'll have to disagree on this one. DD on DD fights use their guns well but in anything where another class is present relegates guns on DDs to bystanders. 5" guns may penetrate CL armour but you need a lot to do much damage. One CL can usually see off or destroy 5 DDs easily. However, torpedoes mean that nothing is safe. Anything without TPS will die and others will be crippled. That's my DD doctrine. They become useful for AA fire support later on though with DP main batteries. Well... my experience tells me that secondary guns, radar and fire-control systems can and will be knocked out by 5" guns. Since they have a high rate of fire they have a decent chance to hit some sensitive systems. This has happened to me many times, both against me and I against the enemy. I find that a sensible middle ground of guns and torpedoes is the most effective type of destroyer so far. I did try the torpedo boat but found they to be lacklustre in most cases and sometimes useful, but since my other DD have torpedoes too they are useful in many more situations. Battles generally don't last long enough for my destroyers to use all their torpedoes all that often anyway. When I started to give my destroyers proper guns they started to thwart enemy destroyers attack much faster by quickly engaging them seeing them turn away before being able to release any torpedoes. When the destroyers charge forward I also loose less destroyers in the attack if they straddle the target with fire at the same time. They might not disrupt a battleships main guns but can certainly disrupt their secondary guns. I also had an interesting fight with two destroyer divisions defending a convoy the other night. Two enemy CL each of 5500 tons with 6" and 3" guns attacking the convoy (around 1910 or so). My 1100t (perhaps a few older 900t as well) destroyers managed to inflict enough damage on the CL for them to break of the attack. Each destroyer had two 5" guns and I believe four 4" guns. I did not loose a singe destroyer although two was heavily damaged and most had some bad bruising.
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