Conning Tower armour refit - Carriers, HMS Warspite

[yemo]

HMS Warspite famously had her conning tower and whole appearance remade during her reconstruction.

The old conning tower had up to 13inches of warmour, the new conning tower a maximum of 3 inches.

I therefore propose that the conning tower armour can be changed in a rebuild.

[brygun]

These seems reasonable to me too. Deck armor and belt armor are very tied to the structure and there were some additions. The conning tower is accessible on the top and can literally be lifted off by the same cranes that put it on in the first place.

[noshurviverse]

This especially makes sense for carrier conversions, considering you're almost certainly moving the entire thing in any case.

[yemo]

Bump for visibility.
A carrier conversion with a 14'' armoured, 1910 built, conning tower makes no sense.

[cplrumrunner]

Bump... Makes total sense to me. That a significant chunk of weight in a CV rebuild.

[oldpop2000]

I am a little confused about this thread. The carriers, actual carriers, rarely had armor on conning towers of more than 4.5 inches on the side and about 1.5 on the top. This was the Yorktown's. The Essex had less. My research says that the Shokaku's had no armor on their conning towers. Total armor weight on those ships was 2160 tons, while the hull weight was 12,460 tons and the decks were 2993 tons. Carriers are mobile landing strips. Their job is the stay back, launch a power strike then move quickly to another location to recover the strike. Speed and space on the major requirements. An aircraft carriers strength is vested in her air group. Battleships fire salvo's, but carrier fire a pulse of power. Carriers by their nature are vulnerable as history shows us. The armor protection should focus on the ammunition magazines which means the deck.

[aeson]

Sept 23, 2019 11:18:16 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

I am a little confused about this thread. The carriers, actual carriers, rarely had armor on conning towers of more than 4.5 inches on the side and about 1.5 on the top. This was the Yorktown's. The Essex had less. My research says that the Shokaku's had no armor on their conning towers. Total armor weight on those ships was 2160 tons, while the hull weight was 12,460 tons and the decks were 2993 tons. Carriers are mobile landing strips. Their job is the stay back, launch a power strike then move quickly to another location to recover the strike. Speed and space on the major requirements. An aircraft carriers strength is vested in her air group. Battleships fire salvo's, but carrier fire a pulse of power. Carriers by their nature are vulnerable as history shows us. The armor protection should focus on the ammunition magazines which means the deck.

The point is that, within the game, carrier conversions keep whatever conning tower armor they had in their prior incarnations. If you create a carrier by converting a battleship that has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, you get a carrier that also has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, with no option to reduce that armor to more reasonable levels for an aircraft carrier. This thread is asking for at least the option to reduce that armor as part of the conversion process.

[oldpop2000]

Sept 23, 2019 11:30:15 GMT -6 aeson said:

Sept 23, 2019 11:18:16 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

I am a little confused about this thread. The carriers, actual carriers, rarely had armor on conning towers of more than 4.5 inches on the side and about 1.5 on the top. This was the Yorktown's. The Essex had less. My research says that the Shokaku's had no armor on their conning towers. Total armor weight on those ships was 2160 tons, while the hull weight was 12,460 tons and the decks were 2993 tons. Carriers are mobile landing strips. Their job is the stay back, launch a power strike then move quickly to another location to recover the strike. Speed and space on the major requirements. An aircraft carriers strength is vested in her air group. Battleships fire salvo's, but carrier fire a pulse of power. Carriers by their nature are vulnerable as history shows us. The armor protection should focus on the ammunition magazines which means the deck.

The point is that, within the game, carrier conversions keep whatever conning tower armor they had in their prior incarnations. If you create a carrier by converting a battleship that has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, you get a carrier that also has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, with no option to reduce that armor to more reasonable levels for an aircraft carrier. This thread is asking for at least the option to reduce that armor as part of the conversion process.

Great, thanks for explaining it, because it did not make sense. The Lexington's were converted before their superstructure was installed. But I agree, when you convert a battleship or battlecruiser you will remove the superstructure and turrets, install a flight deck and an island on either the port or starboard side with far less armor. In fact, I would not put any armor on the island. Save the armor for the flight deck and main deck along with the sides, that is where the protection is required. CIC will be located in the hull, not in the island. 

[williammiller]

That's a good suggestion, thanks yemo .

[cplrumrunner]

Sept 23, 2019 11:48:01 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Sept 23, 2019 11:30:15 GMT -6 aeson said:

The point is that, within the game, carrier conversions keep whatever conning tower armor they had in their prior incarnations. If you create a carrier by converting a battleship that has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, you get a carrier that also has 14" armor plate around its conning tower, with no option to reduce that armor to more reasonable levels for an aircraft carrier. This thread is asking for at least the option to reduce that armor as part of the conversion process.

Great, thanks for explaining it, because it did not make sense. The Lexington's were converted before their superstructure was installed. But I agree, when you convert a battleship or battlecruiser you will remove the superstructure and turrets, install a flight deck and an island on either the port or starboard side with far less armor. In fact, I would not put any armor on the island. Save the armor for the flight deck and main deck along with the sides, that is where the protection is required. CIC will be located in the hull, not in the island. 

Another thing that I just thought about, though it would be trickier to implement, is giving the option to remove a portion of the belt/deck armor and doing a rebuild. IIRC, there are basically two types of armor in capital ships, integrated armor that's either structural to the ship or implemented in such a way that it's contained within the ship (the sloped belt armor scheme of the Iowa class for example), and applique 'slab' armor that's literally large pieces of steel attached to to the outside of the hull (like on most of the older battleships). There's no way to change an integrated system obviously, but applique armor could and was added/removed to/from ships in rebuilds. IIRC several American CVs were constructed with an armor belt, but at some point had most of it removed except the portions covering magazines. I believe there where even instances where removed armor from one ship was added later to another ship, in the same way that removed guns were reused.

My point is, so long as a ship is not constructed with sloped armor (which IMO should give more than a 10% buff depending on tech but that's beside the point), when you rebuild that ship you should be able to remove/add belt armor in a limited way. It would be a nice feature, though nowhere near as simple and obvious as being able to delete the conning tower. 

[oldpop2000]

Sept 23, 2019 13:52:23 GMT -6 cplrumrunner said:

Sept 23, 2019 11:48:01 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Great, thanks for explaining it, because it did not make sense. The Lexington's were converted before their superstructure was installed. But I agree, when you convert a battleship or battlecruiser you will remove the superstructure and turrets, install a flight deck and an island on either the port or starboard side with far less armor. In fact, I would not put any armor on the island. Save the armor for the flight deck and main deck along with the sides, that is where the protection is required. CIC will be located in the hull, not in the island. 

. ….IIRC, there are basically two types of armor in capital ships, integrated armor that's either structural to the ship or implemented in such a way that it's contained within the ship (the sloped belt armor scheme of the Iowa class for example),and applique 'slab' armor that's literally large pieces of steel attached to to the outside of the hull (like on most of the older battleships). There's no way to change an integrated system obviously, but applique armor could and was added/removed to/from ships in rebuilds. IIRC several American CVs were constructed with an armor belt, but at some point had most of it removed except the portions covering magazines. I believe there where even instances where removed armor from one ship was added later to another ship, in the same way that removed guns were reused.

My point is, so long as a ship is not constructed with sloped armor (which IMO should give more than a 10% buff depending on tech but that's beside the point), when you rebuild that ship you should be able to remove/add belt armor in a limited way. It would be a nice feature, though nowhere near as simple and obvious as being able to delete the conning tower. 

Weight distribution in ships actually prevents the construction of the hull with armor. It cannot be done and still have a ship that has good weight distribution to allow for other features. A ship needs to be seaworthy and weight distribution is very important. Most of the weight in armor must be near the bottom, not higher in the ship like the superstructure.