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Post by talkos on Aug 11, 2015 20:00:21 GMT -6
In my latest game, I tried to keep weight relatively controlled, and this is the little ship that helped me with that. I decided to standardize calibers at 6in for CLs, 9 for CAs and 12 for the battleline at the start of the game, although the last of which finally changed in the last few years. Designed to be relatively quick for a ship designed in 1900, she proved to be fast enough to catch and destroy any other light cruiser(fighting and sinking those well into the 5k tonnage), and run from any other early heavy cruiser. Upgraded several times, her design lineage became a minelayer and colonial service workhorse. Only when BCs started showing up in the 1920s did she finally need a major overhaul to increase her speed enough to run away from those, and she was supplanted by a new CL with a few sets of triple turrets. Either way, these cheap little cruisers kept my colonial obligations secured for far longer than expected. Now these lasted longer than they should have. I decided at the start of the game that if I was to have a cruiser, no expense was to be spared. Fast, raiders that could also support the fleet with those deadly 9in guns. In action after action they would catch and kill. By 1915 they were showing their age, simply in the fact that turret technology had come along so well. A treaty banning ships over 10,000 tons kept them relevant for a few more years, but even a refit to give them more speed and better targeting systems wouldn't help, as I was laying down the keels of new cruisers with two or even three times the amount of firepower with about the same tonnage. Still, I kept them around for one last war...which unfortunately included two French BCs in the 30,000 ton range(which were in fact LARGER than their BBs in service). Of the 6 remaining ships of the class, I lost 5 and mothballed the last one to keep her out of harm's way, a loss in tonnage greater than the entire game so far(excluding a single old pre-dreadnaught that had eaten a lucky torpedo a decade earlier). But for 15 years, these things ruled the waves as raiders and interceptors.
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Post by cwemyss on Aug 13, 2015 9:40:11 GMT -6
I got this beast into the water in July 1925... and the last fleet engagement of the game was in August, while it was still in workup. Oh well! Zero treaty restrictions, and this was my first game so "building one monster for fun" was more important than actually getting adequate hulls in the water to, say, stave off a blockade, or have ANY raiders in my last war. Edit: And yes... I stuck with the "who needs a superstructure" theme. :-)
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Post by genjeft on Aug 13, 2015 18:51:01 GMT -6
Current ships in my German Campaign ordered by tonnage in 1921. Attachment DeletedI seem to have a lot of luck keeping old ships around for a long long time and I also tend to make rather small ships. The largest ship currenly in service with the German Fleet is the Braunschweig class currently represented by the lead ship Braunschweig. It was my attempt to get into the BB game while limited by the fact that I forgot to expand my shipyards. As a result the ship ended up being another B class instead of a BB. But for a B class it is still very heavily armed with 4 12 inch cannons and 12 11 inch cannons giving it a broadside of 4 12 inch shells and 6 11 inch shells. Nothing to shake a stick at that's for sure. It was intended to have 2 of these in commission but an arms treaty led to the scrapping of the 2nd ship of the class while in construction. I also found a bug while refitting this class with the new fire control, this ship origionaly had 18 or 20 6 inch guns for the trertiary guns but the refit would not let me keep that. It just kept saying I could not mount 6 inch guns in refit... but they were already there... very very aggravating (yes I put big guns on my ships for secondary and Tertiary...). Next up are the really really old Weissenburg class. This class is represented by 4 ships called Weissenburg, Zahrigen, Schwaben, and Bradenburg. Despite their age they have proven to be quite useful if only to fill in tonnage for overseas requirements as needed. Weissenburg and Zahrigen along with the Victoria Louise had the misfortune of encountering the French BB Suffren of 33,500 tons in a night battle at point blank range. The Weissenburg was disabled for part of the battle after a lucky hit to the engine room took out ALL power for an hour or so leaving her dead in the water. Then there are the Victoria Louise class of ships represented only by the Victoria Louise. This class has turned out to be fantastically powerful and this ship alone ended up filling my entire need for a CA. With a broadside of 4 9 inch guns and 8(?) 14 inch guns she probably has the heaviest broadside of any CA, she sure did at the time (? because looking at the picture I have no clue where the 13th and 14th 8 inch guns are, that 7th turret does not show). This ship with its 3 escorting destroyers had the great misfortune of finding the French BB Suffren in the dark. This led to a point blank gun duel where the Victoria fired 81 shots and hit with 19 (unheard of 23.46% accuracy) only taking 4 shots in return from the Suffren. Those 4 shots caused enough damage that the Victoria had to withdraw from the battle as soon as the old Bs arrived and limp home at 8 knots. She has been by far the best performer in the fleet time and time again. Side note with the battle against the Suffren, once I got her separated from the escorts in the dead of night I mobbed the ship with everything I could get. Before she sunk she got hit with 63 heavy shells, 73 medium shells, 40 light shells, and 6 torpedo. But she managed to sink 2 destroyers in the process including the lead destroyer of the Smith class. Following up the Victoria are the new Armoured Cruisers the Vinetia class. This class is my fastest ship above 10,000 tons by a long shot managing 27 knots. Easily fast enough to get away from anything that can kill her and with her 12 9 inch guns and 12 6 inch guns perfectly able to kill anything that can catch her. This class is represented by the Vineta and Freya and have just been completed. They have yet to see combat. Then come the Thetis CL class of ships. Origionaly designed in 1911 to provide recon for a battle group and intercept commerce raiders they have proven themselves to be a good fit. With a respectable speed of 26 knots they can flee from most things that will kill them and with a respectable armament of 8 7 inch guns she can make very quick work of any commerce raiders she intercepts. This class is represented by the Amazone, Arcona, Ariadne, Medusa, nyphe, Thetis, and Undine. Then we have the Gazelle class of light cruisers. These are old tubs designed back in 1903 purely to provide overseas tonnage. Not very fast at 23 knots but with respectable guns at 8 7 inch guns with 4 3 inch guns and the two torpedos they have proven to be useful. They spend most of the time patrolling overseas. This class is represented by the Gazelle, Gefion, Hela, and Niobe. Like with any old ships they have had refits to keep them going. Then the AMCs... moving on (I am in a war right now). The Smith class of destroyers. You may noticed the odd name of this destroyer class for the Germans, there is a reason for that. These are actually American ships. I did not have the tech for 900 ton destroyers so I used the American shipyards to make these. My initial order was for 10 of them which was completed before any unbecoming tension. The lead ship of the class was loss in the battle with the French BB Suffren. These destroyers have proven to be good work horses and have been refit, originally designed in 1909 they only did 28 knots but I replaced the American engines and boilers with German ones and got 2 extra knots out of them without increasing the weight. They are due for a new refit but that program is on hold with the war going on. This class is represented by the destroyers S15, S16, and S21. 7 of these ships have been loses in a couple of wars. Now for the first of the German class destroyers we have the V1 Class of 1899 which have somehow managed to hang on. There are actually more of these left then the Smith class. They have had a refit to do 30 knots and they spend ALL of the time on oversea stations and as such avoid the wars. All the original ships survive (I think). S13 class, another 1899 ship, all of these survive for much the same reason as the V1 class of ships, oversea stations avoiding the fighting. Now refit to do 28 knots. Then the Denebola class of MS. They do what MS ships are designed to do, ASW and nothing else. Origionaly there were 10 when they were built back in 1908 but 4 have been lost over the years. Refurbished only. Ships under construction. BB class Wettin, plans to build 2 or 3 of these ships. At 30,000 tons they are still very small for a BB class of ship and once again limited by my shipyard size (I tend to forget to expand it). But in its small size it carries 12 14 inch main guns with a secondary of 14 6 inch guns, again I have no clue where the 7th dual turret is... At 25 knots she is possibly the fastest BB in production right now in my game and is probably more of a BC then a BB. Then we have the first class of new destroyers being built the S14 class of DD. These do 32 knots, carry 4 5 inch guns and 2 triple tube torpedo launchers. 10 of them currently under construction. The 2nd new class of destroyers are the V27 ships, same size as the S14 they only do 30 knots but carry 4 inch guns in 4 dual turrets and have two quad tube torpedo launchers. Something you really dont want to run into. Sadly these have cramped crew quarters. Attachment Deleted
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 15, 2015 16:27:18 GMT -6
Question: I don't have the game yet, but I was wondering if the game limits the British capital ships to a beam of 90 feet due to the lack of graving docks that were wider? Looking at the maps, the docks are less than 100 feet wide. It seems hard to imagine building warships over 25,000 tons without a beam of larger than 90 feet.
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Post by alchenar on Aug 15, 2015 17:02:43 GMT -6
Question: I don't have the game yet, but I was wondering if the game limits the British capital ships to a beam of 90 feet due to the lack of graving docks that were wider? Looking at the maps, the docks are less than 100 feet wide. It seems hard to imagine building warships over 25,000 tons without a beam of larger than 90 feet. The game abstracts that out. Your nation has dockyards with a certain tonnage capacity. You can spend money to increase it (and there's no reason ever not to do this until you reach the cap). You also have the option to have your ships built overseas in other people's dockyards. e: you also aren't designing things in that detail. You select the tonnage you want, then according to your techs you 'spend' that tonnage on engines, guns, armour, etc.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 15, 2015 18:50:10 GMT -6
Question: I don't have the game yet, but I was wondering if the game limits the British capital ships to a beam of 90 feet due to the lack of graving docks that were wider? Looking at the maps, the docks are less than 100 feet wide. It seems hard to imagine building warships over 25,000 tons without a beam of larger than 90 feet. The game abstracts that out. Your nation has dockyards with a certain tonnage capacity. You can spend money to increase it (and there's no reason ever not to do this until you reach the cap). You also have the option to have your ships built overseas in other people's dockyards. e: you also aren't designing things in that detail. You select the tonnage you want, then according to your techs you 'spend' that tonnage on engines, guns, armour, etc. Excellent.. My compliments, Sir. Thank you.
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Post by ccip on Aug 15, 2015 22:29:32 GMT -6
The other thing to note is that the game's ship designer does not get into specific dimensions - it leaves that in the hands of the "virtual engineers" to work out details like beam, draft or metacentric height. I guess from a certain perspective, your real input into the ship designs is how you choose to distribute the weight. It's assumed that you have a team of engineers that will take it and run with it from there and do their best to meet all other restrictions, but you as the head of navy don't need to work them out yourself.
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Post by galagagalaxian on Aug 16, 2015 2:22:52 GMT -6
IRL, ships often messed up their targeting and fired at a target that was supposedly engaged by another ship. This was all the more true for secondary batteries. The AI logic for selecting targets is deliberately somewhat fuzzy and made to produce occasional overconcentrations of fire, both of main and secondary batteries. I'm curious, I've noticed for large ships (B/BC/BB) that the secondary battery tends to prioritize targets differently depending on gun caliber. For example, large caliber (8-10") secondaries will target your primary target or another large ship while smaller secondaries (4-6") seem to prefer to fire on nearby enemy destroyers. Is this actually true, or am I just seeing what I want to see? If so, at what caliber level do secondary guns prefer to take the torpedo defense role? On most of my BBs/BCs I prefer to keep the secondary armament to numerous smaller guns in an attempt to ensure they prioritize deterring enemy destroyers from making flotilla attacks.
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Post by Fredrik W on Aug 16, 2015 3:16:37 GMT -6
IRL, ships often messed up their targeting and fired at a target that was supposedly engaged by another ship. This was all the more true for secondary batteries. The AI logic for selecting targets is deliberately somewhat fuzzy and made to produce occasional overconcentrations of fire, both of main and secondary batteries. I'm curious, I've noticed for large ships (B/BC/BB) that the secondary battery tends to prioritize targets differently depending on gun caliber. For example, large caliber (8-10") secondaries will target your primary target or another large ship while smaller secondaries (4-6") seem to prefer to fire on nearby enemy destroyers. Is this actually true, or am I just seeing what I want to see? If so, at what caliber level do secondary guns prefer to take the torpedo defense role? On most of my BBs/BCs I prefer to keep the secondary armament to numerous smaller guns in an attempt to ensure they prioritize deterring enemy destroyers from making flotilla attacks. Yes that is true. Secondaries of 6 in or less will tend to prefer DDs as targets, while larger guns will tend to prefer larger targets. This is not absolute however, range is a factor, and there is as mentioned above some fuzziness built in to simulate general confusion, visibility, targeting errors etc.
This is of course because larger guns are comparatively more effective vs larger targets. I guess the lesson for ship designers is, if you go in for heavy secondary batteries, make sure you have a decent tertiary battery to keep enemy destroyers at bay.
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Post by genjeft on Aug 16, 2015 9:38:43 GMT -6
I'm curious, I've noticed for large ships (B/BC/BB) that the secondary battery tends to prioritize targets differently depending on gun caliber. For example, large caliber (8-10") secondaries will target your primary target or another large ship while smaller secondaries (4-6") seem to prefer to fire on nearby enemy destroyers. Is this actually true, or am I just seeing what I want to see? If so, at what caliber level do secondary guns prefer to take the torpedo defense role? On most of my BBs/BCs I prefer to keep the secondary armament to numerous smaller guns in an attempt to ensure they prioritize deterring enemy destroyers from making flotilla attacks. Yes that is true. Secondaries of 6 in or less will tend to prefer DDs as targets, while larger guns will tend to prefer larger targets. This is not absolute however, range is a factor, and there is as mentioned above some fuzziness built in to simulate general confusion, visibility, targeting errors etc.
This is of course because larger guns are comparatively more effective vs larger targets. I guess the lesson for ship designers is, if you go in for heavy secondary batteries, make sure you have a decent tertiary battery to keep enemy destroyers at bay.
If you fit 6 inch tertiary batteries to your ship you will not be able to keep them with the first refit. It forces you to mount 5 inch guns or less while in refit for the tertiary guns.
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Post by Fredrik W on Aug 16, 2015 14:52:44 GMT -6
Yes that is true. Secondaries of 6 in or less will tend to prefer DDs as targets, while larger guns will tend to prefer larger targets. This is not absolute however, range is a factor, and there is as mentioned above some fuzziness built in to simulate general confusion, visibility, targeting errors etc.
This is of course because larger guns are comparatively more effective vs larger targets. I guess the lesson for ship designers is, if you go in for heavy secondary batteries, make sure you have a decent tertiary battery to keep enemy destroyers at bay.
If you fit 6 inch tertiary batteries to your ship you will not be able to keep them with the first refit. It forces you to mount 5 inch guns or less while in refit for the tertiary guns. Yes, I have noted the bug report. It is being fixed.
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Post by baggers on Aug 21, 2015 16:12:12 GMT -6
By the time it was commissioned, this thing is a monster, both in cruiser engagements (just watch out for torpedos, and crush all else), and even in fleet battles (harash and drive the ennemy old battleships line, and wait for a lone injuried prey...)
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Post by baggers on Aug 22, 2015 4:02:30 GMT -6
I fear I have lost the "Gorka" in a Battle with british ships in 1917... a prestigious and victorious one where the British dreadnougth have fallen, but a very sad one... But with the 1915 refit (new coal engines for 29knots, better fire control, and even some more 3" for all these torpedo boats around...) the "Morka" last to the end of this game, and even sink alone a French cruiser in the last Russo-french war in 1924!
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Post by brucesim2003 on Aug 22, 2015 7:02:55 GMT -6
The armour is far too thin for my tastes. I would have made the 8" guns 6" and used the surplus weight for armour. My philosophy is "you can NEVER have too much armour". Speed comes a poor 3rd to amour and then firepower imo.
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hg42
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by hg42 on Aug 22, 2015 17:48:15 GMT -6
The armour is far too thin for my tastes. I would have made the 8" guns 6" and used the surplus weight for armour. My philosophy is "you can NEVER have too much armour". Speed comes a poor 3rd to amour and then firepower imo. Well, it's useful if you're going to take advantage of it - if you're just going to charge everything at the enemy fleet head-on...then go slow, yeah. It's interesting just how far you can think you're getting by future-proofing ship (especially battleship) designs - I started off DN designs in a just-finished game with a replica Cuniberti 'colossus', which is non-ideal but amusing (also it turns out that introducing three of them into a war with Italy c.1905, which hadn't even thought of building anything but pre-DNs at the time, makes for an unpleasant time to be Italian), and then rolled 4 centerline/superfiring by 1909...so thought "hey, why don't I build something oversized and overweight so that I can refit it faster with 15" guns later? It worked out ok in theory, but I didn't have a war between building the things initially and their refits being over, so it was a waste of money, and in practice the four older ones just weren't quiiiite big enough and didn't have the free weight to have their turrets uparmoured. Cue three of them going kaboom in one battle up against a horde of 14in German DNs that couldn't really hurt anything else they were facing. oops. Still won that war, technically, since the German battlecruiser force evaporated at the same time; they never really replaced it. The next one came along a few years later, and the Nelson-a-likes (six of the things! that particular A-B-L layout seems to save you several hundred T on armour somewhere, so they could have been just 40000t, but I missed that the game had switched back to coal somewhere) were done, and, well...
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