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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 1:23:00 GMT -6
I was gearing up for a major conflict with some other nations and come to learn that they've totally scrapped their BB fleets. Gone! Poof! Slowly replacing them, but not entirely are newer fast CA's and CV's. Doesnt make sense to me. I realize the era of the battleship is likely at an end, yadda yadda yadda all that stuff. But maybe a less aggressive approach a little later on would suffice? I'm not convinced the Devs that programmed this understand how detrimental it is to the AI for such a drastic move to be made while their replacement fleets are BUILDING.
I'd love to have more concrete info for you, like a pic of fleets before and after, but this should work:
Here's the BB total in 1946 with Very Large Fleets: 14. Before in 1944 it was around 26 or so, not including my nation. I dont know what the BC count was in 1944, but now it's 21 which is much lower. Everyone is shifting to CA's and CVs.
Is this hard coded? I'd like to change it. And if it's hard coded, I'd like to talk about it. I really think BB's shouldnt be scrapped like they are and instead I'd like to see more of them Mothballed for a while... at LEAST until these new fleets of CA/CV's can get built.
I'm about to go to war with Germany and France and they've both gutted their navy. I'm quite disappointed and concerned this sorta AI scrapping is not done with current Tensions in mind and needs a little more attention.
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 2:59:42 GMT -6
Scrapping is much bigger issue.
It is linked to available budget too. As AI invests heavily in land air power, AI has much less of budget available for ships.
So there are 2 reasons why AI is scrapping:
1. Ship is old - AI is doing that without proper analysis. It was not issue in RTW1 as 20 years old ship is not useful but in RTW2 period starting in middle of 20s or 30s the technological progress slow down making even 20 years old ships useful in comparison of costs of new ships. This is big issue in 40s and later as AI scraps ships which could still be useful
2. Has no funds - As funds are depleted on air power, AI has not enough funds for ships (especially true with small fleet settings) so AI tries to lower maintenance costs by scrapping even new ships (in one occasion AI scrap during war 4 years old CVL)
Both reasons are real issue and make AI incompetive from early 30s with small fleet to from 40s in very large fleet
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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 5:10:14 GMT -6
So in 1946, France has ZERO battleships with very large fleet settings. That's normal? dorn, I'm telling you that the AI isn't WAI and if it is it needs to be changed and you're passing it off as normality. One of us is dead wrong. |
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Post by mycophobia on Sept 18, 2019 5:46:28 GMT -6
So in 1946, France has ZERO battleships with very large fleet settings. That's normal? dorn, I'm telling you that the AI isn't WAI and if it is it needs to be changed and you're passing it off as normality. One of us is dead wrong. He is certainly not passing it off as normal(in fact claiming it’s a much larger issue) but pointing out that the reason behind current AI logic that lead to the result you observe. Personally I don’t have many games going into the mid late 40s, but I do observe this trend starting in the mid late 30s where CA are being built again regardless of treaties, and the general trend towards scrapping BBs. I think dorn’s analysis that the AI is running its budget to the ground due to over investment into land based air is probably a sound reason behind this, but the AI’s general propensity to scrap 20+ year ship at a moments notice is something that should be looked into. I think replacement fleet or not, when tensions are high the AI should not be scrapping ships, but i’ve seen instance of them doing so pretty much few months before the war at orange tension. If tensions are low I’m okay with the ai being a bit more reckless with scrapping old ships, assuming they build replacement ships rather than more land based air. it is something realistically done and not necessarily something the player can quickly exploit. |
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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 5:59:00 GMT -6
So in 1946, France has ZERO battleships with very large fleet settings. That's normal? dorn , I'm telling you that the AI isn't WAI and if it is it needs to be changed and you're passing it off as normality. One of us is dead wrong. He is certainly not passing it off as normal(in fact claiming it’s a much larger issue) but pointing out that the reason behind current AI logic that lead to the result you observe. I'd like to see the logic the AI uses, cuz I think it's flawed. Getting rid of every BB you have because of air power? Flawed. Reducing your budget so you scrap completely fine new designs of BB's, flawed. |
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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 8:40:04 GMT -6
And this happens every game at precisely the same time. It needs attention and maybe consideration of current enemy fleet strength and current tension levels need to be taken into consideration before the AI scraps perfectly good BB's which is what is happening now.
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Post by jishmael on Sept 18, 2019 10:45:56 GMT -6
I'm pretty confident that ai investment into air power is not the issue.
In my last games that went to the 40s and beyond I had way more planes than any ai nation, sometimes double.
Yet all ai nations decide simultaneously that battleships are over, scrap all their bc and bb and build a ton of ca, which then meet my ten year old bcs and die. Over and over and over.
So there might be a general budget handling and scrapping issue, but it doesn't explain why one day the ai switches to CA only and gets itself slaughtered
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 11:20:46 GMT -6
I think dorn’s analysis that the AI is running its budget to the ground due to over investment into land based air is probably a sound reason behind this, but the AI’s general propensity to scrap 20+ year ship at a moments notice is something that should be looked into. Probably not on very large fleet but still limiting number of ships. With very large fleet settings it has smaller effect as budget is higher so % spent on aircrafts are much lower. Things completely changed and go completly wrong with small fleet size. At this time AI spends usually more than 50 % only on aicrafts. In one case it was 94 % (info from save) of incomes!!! And this is without maintenance of bases!
I will link here later to my post of analysis.
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 11:26:00 GMT -6
So in 1946, France has ZERO battleships with very large fleet settings. That's normal? dorn , I'm telling you that the AI isn't WAI and if it is it needs to be changed and you're passing it off as normality. One of us is dead wrong. Not at all. I know about this issue for some time. But without clearly presentation it is not obvious so I have not done yet.
Issue is more complex and solutio will be not so easy. Issue with RTW2 is that it adds airpower without adopting rest of RTW1 on that. Some effects are really bad.
I suggest you try one game on small fleet size, you will find easily all strategic issues, some of them are not easily visible on very large fleet size but still there. Everything mainly starts with airpower so till 20s except some bugs, issues with invasion mechanics and other minor issues, RTW2 plays very nice. But with starting airpower, airpower puts game to imbalance for reasons that AI plays it as 2 games (airpower and rest thus RTW1) and are unable to react properly.
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 11:38:11 GMT -6
I'm pretty confident that ai investment into air power is not the issue. I am pretty sure, it is big issue, especially on small size of fleets.
I am just doing analysis and come to another conlusion. It is not only investment into air power but into infrastructure (coastal fortresses, airbases) too.
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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 11:45:40 GMT -6
dorn I dont play small fleet size. I dont think I want to. I have had my fun of 2xCL + 4xDD missions, thank you very much. Dont know if that type mission spam is what you get on Small fleet size, but I cant imagine having enough ships to protect everything around the world as most colonial powers have to do. Makes losing a BB something to cry over. Lets not get into that discussion on large vs small fleets. I don't know what needs to be done to fix this issue, but identifying it is important so we know what exactly we are dealing with. And when the AI is scrapping perfectly good BB's in favor of air power expenses... they they aren't prioritizing their fleet like the should. Maybe I can see Italy doing that. But France? With all the world wide colonies they need to project power to? With the way the game mechanics work, this is nearly game breaking. Instead of fighting all these scary BB's just wait till 1946 and almost all of them will be poofta. So that needs to be fixed. Dunno what I'll say in the bug report, but it's coming for this issue.
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 12:57:29 GMT -6
dorn I dont play small fleet size. I dont think I want to. I have had my fun of 2xCL + 4xDD missions, thank you very much. Dont know if that type mission spam is what you get on Small fleet size, but I cant imagine having enough ships to protect everything around the world as most colonial powers have to do. Makes losing a BB something to cry over. Lets not get into that discussion on large vs small fleets. I don't know what needs to be done to fix this issue, but identifying it is important so we know what exactly we are dealing with. And when the AI is scrapping perfectly good BB's in favor of air power expenses... they they aren't prioritizing their fleet like the should. Maybe I can see Italy doing that. But France? With all the world wide colonies they need to project power to? With the way the game mechanics work, this is nearly game breaking. Instead of fighting all these scary BB's just wait till 1946 and almost all of them will be poofta. So that needs to be fixed. Dunno what I'll say in the bug report, but it's coming for this issue. You can see all that issue here. Some of them are even visible very large fleet. But with very large fleet it is usually not stopping AI completely but make AI unable to compete or make AI much less competitive. |
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Post by dizzy on Sept 18, 2019 14:28:39 GMT -6
dorn Yeah, I see where Italy was spending 94% of their budget on airpower. That's bad coding. So I'm sure they will be cleaning that up, cuz as it stands, with AI being the way they are, the game's not worth playing after 1946. Ai just scraps all it's fleet and loads up on planes. It's Rule the Air at that point.
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Post by akosjaccik on Sept 18, 2019 14:46:57 GMT -6
Funny thing is, I was ringing the bell for esentially this same exact issue back in ~1.02. I'm rather glad that it came up again, dorn dipped into it and may get something out of it. My original recommendation was to drastically downscale land-based air capacity per base tier. We'll see if the team will cook up something.
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Post by dorn on Sept 18, 2019 14:48:30 GMT -6
dorn Yeah, I see where Italy was spending 94% of their budget on airpower. That's bad coding. So I'm sure they will be cleaning that up, cuz as it stands, with AI being the way they are, the game's not worth playing after 1946. Ai just scraps all it's fleet and loads up on planes. It's Rule the Air at that point. I have not played too many games yet but it seems issue starts with airpower around 20s when AI starts investing more into aircrafts. At the beginning of 30s it starts be even more visible as AI increase investments into airpower and CVs. I think in small fleet you can see effects of this from beginning 30s at latest and with very large fleet at beginning of 40s.
With very large fleet AI has more funds so AI limit new construction and as it has fleet and later available costs for new construction goes down (percentage of incomes) it is not visible when it starts (usuallly in middle of 20s). But the damage is there cumulating year by year at at time when ships become too old and AI starts scrapping them, you see effect of it completely naked. But the issue (the reason) starts 20 years earlier.
The issue is not only airpower but infrastructure too.
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