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Post by christian on Sept 20, 2019 7:18:17 GMT -6
i have finished the bomb penetration table for ap bombs although there are still a few holes il get to patching those out later docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e9cBWU-iG7rbs-4HDVFfQ_5y5JvImzI9j57xE7qBh-0/edit?usp=sharingleave any comments there if theres something you wanna see i will also be testing SAP bombs and GP bombs (HE) and see how they perform although not in the near future (im trying to create some mods for the game and id rather do those) also no way im doing level bombing pen its way too hard to collect data on and i just found out im not able to post more than 1 MB worth of files yet the total amount of pictures amounts to more than 13 MB of pictures from the tests if you want the test photos you can hit me up on the RTW discord im @woah#6559 (also i have no idea how to put files into google sheets so yeah) test photos are just damage logs from all the test ships (pen0 is where no lucky hits were noted although i suspect they are intirely possible) (350 lb bomb has been changed to 300 as i have no acces to 350lb) Attachments:
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Post by dizzy on Sept 20, 2019 8:48:30 GMT -6
This is bad ass! Thanks for testing this out, christian! Nice job. I've always wondered home much deck or turret top armor I needed. Pesky planes! |
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Post by christian on Sept 20, 2019 9:30:05 GMT -6
to be mentioned these tests were done with level 25 armor development (so almost best armor) expect bombs to pen a bit more when you have lower armor tech
bombs were dropped from 3 planes
300 lb 600 lb and 1400 lb were dropped from a plane with a top speed of 243 knots
500lb 800 lb and 1500 lb were dropped from a plane with a top speed of 272 knots
250lb 500 lb and 1000lb were dropped from a plane with a top speed of 309 knots
i dont know if plane speed changes the penetration of bombs if it does keep it in mind when using this pen table
also im working on determining oxygen torpedo range compared to non oxygen torpedoes
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Post by dizzy on Nov 2, 2019 8:24:57 GMT -6
dizzy There is no time of test. The speed of dive bombing has effect too. 250 lbs AP bomb should not penetrate 3" of deck armour during WW2 with reasonable chance to hit. Look at damage reports of British carriers, no Japanese AP bomb get through their deck armour and 1000 kg bomb which penetrated HMS Illustrious according to the report just penetrated her deck. May be bombs are overpenetrating. I will try to do some statistics through the time. In my Netherlands campaign... I started building 6.5" Deck armor sometime in the late thirties. And from the forties onward, I don't think I ever saw a 1000 lbs bomb penetrate my 6.5" deck. I usually top armor my turrets at 7 to 8 and even the older BB/BC's at 6.5" were never penetrated by 1000 lbs bombs. This continued thru 1955. |
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Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 2, 2019 11:03:15 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the 3" flight deck armor of the Illustrious class would be virtually useless in RTW2.
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Post by dizzy on Nov 2, 2019 11:28:40 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the 3" flight deck armor of the Illustrious class would be virtually useless in RTW2. It is... The only thing it does is protect from heavy cruiser shells. That's why I argued for lowering the weight of the flight deck armor a little in the suggestions thread a LOOOOONG time ago. Deck armor is WAAAAAAAY heavy... more so than I think it should be. I dont recall the argument off the top of my head. But IF you're gonna armor a flight deck, it's basically useless to use anything less than 6.5 inches because very very soon, like early forties soon, the enemy will sport 1000 lbs bombs for their dive bombers and anything less than 6.5 inches will be toast. |
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Post by dorn on Nov 2, 2019 13:52:32 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the 3" flight deck armor of the Illustrious class would be virtually useless in RTW2. It seems to be. In reality it was enough to protect ship against anything Japanese dive bombers used. It can happen some splinters get through but not the whole bomb.
If these numbers are correct, the penetration ability of bombs is too high in RTW2.
However situation is much more complex. Weight of bombs is one parameter. The second one is speed of dive bomber at time of release. And other is release height. Release height is quite variable but increasing release height increases penetration potential of bomb and decreases accuracy quite rapidly.
Penetration of modern battleships deck armour is quite difficult, you can take example Tirpitz and it was stationary target and Tirpitz was battleships which protection was more focused on vertical protection than horizontal.
For heavily armoured ships as battleships or british armoured carriers (in case of medium bombs) the most devastating attacks are usually near misses which can distort hull as deck armour is usually thick enough to protect ship vitals.
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Post by aetreus on Nov 2, 2019 15:27:38 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the 3" flight deck armor of the Illustrious class would be virtually useless in RTW2. Against full AP bombs, probably. The context is that full AP bombs were relatively rare during WWII, which might not be realistically represented. 1000lbs bombs like the USN Mark 33 and German PC 500 penetrated about 4" to 5" of armor depending on drop parameters. Heavy 1600lbs bombs like the USN Mark 1 and IJN Type 99 Number 80 Mark 5 were rated for 5-6" of penetration. A smaller 500lbs bomb would probably have reliably penetrated 3" of armor. The asterisk there is that AFAIK nobody made a full-AP bomb in this size, the closest are the IJN's SAP bombs, which managed 2" of penetration. |
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2019 15:59:44 GMT -6
The UK flight decks did bounce off IJN kamikaze planes. This was mentioned in Drachinfel's armored vs unarmored carrier video.
The planes are more of an HE than an AP hit. The planes did little damage to the ship.
Ultimately the Tirpitz got its business done with tall boy bombs dropped from very high altitude. Eventually AP bombs will penetrate. However that is a very custom specific situation not representative of majority of the RTW battles.
PS: huzzah for the chart, well done.
Recommend it be sticked or perhaps we can start a sticky thread where the devs put in helpful things like this and my AA description. This being so future newcomers to the forums will see them.
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Post by dorn on Nov 2, 2019 16:32:59 GMT -6
Unless I'm missing something it looks like the 3" flight deck armor of the Illustrious class would be virtually useless in RTW2. Against full AP bombs, probably. The context is that full AP bombs were relatively rare during WWII, which might not be realistically represented. 1000lbs bombs like the USN Mark 33 and German PC 500 penetrated about 4" to 5" of armor depending on drop parameters. Heavy 1600lbs bombs like the USN Mark 1 and IJN Type 99 Number 80 Mark 5 were rated for 5-6" of penetration. A smaller 500lbs bomb would probably have reliably penetrated 3" of armor. The asterisk there is that AFAIK nobody made a full-AP bomb in this size, the closest are the IJN's SAP bombs, which managed 2" of penetration. Issue is that such penetration was usually with ideal height which in reality was usually lower to increase chance of hit.
German PC 500 was German rocket propelled bomb she was designed for heavily armed targets. But to compare with standard SC 500, PC 500 has only less than 100 kg of explosive compared to SC 500 with about quarter of 1 ton so the damage would be quite lower.
But till rocket propelled bombs are introduced such penetration should not be usual.
Another thing is the angle of impact which plays role too and it depends on a lot of factors.
There is article about 1500 lbs AP bomb testing. It was from 10000 feets, to achieve hit during combat release height was usually lower. Another thing is tests and real combat. Under fire it was difficult to have ideal conditions.
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Post by pashahlis on Nov 2, 2019 18:50:23 GMT -6
The UK flight decks did bounce off IJN kamikaze planes. This was mentioned in Drachinfel's armored vs unarmored carrier video. The planes are more of an HE than an AP hit. The planes did little damage to the ship. Ultimately the Tirpitz got its business done with tall boy bombs dropped from very high altitude. Eventually AP bombs will penetrate. However that is a very custom specific situation not representative of majority of the RTW battles. PS: huzzah for the chart, well done. Recommend it be sticked or perhaps we can start a sticky thread where the devs put in helpful things like this and my AA description. This being so future newcomers to the forums will see them. What AA description? |
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Post by kriegsmeister on Nov 3, 2019 0:17:29 GMT -6
Also something to note, I believe the game only calculates penetration of the main armor deck, it doesn't factor in the several inches of structural steel from the several decks and superstructure above the actual armor. Yeah a bomb may be able to penetrate 5-6in of armor plate, but if its passing through 2, 3, 4 in of structural steel before your 4in armor deck, it will probably not penetrate and "safely" explode above it
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Post by brygun on Nov 3, 2019 9:32:08 GMT -6
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Post by williammiller on Nov 3, 2019 9:37:53 GMT -6
I'll put this in our internal discussion thread to be looked at, thanks.
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Post by christian on Nov 5, 2019 4:55:54 GMT -6
i did these tests several times and got the same results each time
i can post my savegame if anyone wants it
i should probably have done flight deck instead of deck armor but oh well
also i intentionally made the armor everywhere on the ships extremely tough as to not effect the deck performance negatively
small edit to the document i highlighted a pen anomaly in my tests at where the 500 lb bomb cant pen but the 300 lb one can (vs 4 inch armor)
tested it several times and thats the only place where there is an anomaly dont know why
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