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Post by christian on Mar 7, 2020 6:56:13 GMT -6
If the question is relating to the "100% penetration" for 6" deck armor on Christian's chart, perhaps not enough trials were run on 5" Deck armor to isolate the true percentages. Perhaps it is 95%. Considering that 1400lb bomb was right next to another 1400lb bomb that did penetrate, and furthermore penetrated the usually more resistant engine room area, I would chalk it up to a fluke, an outlier. I haven't encountered an unusual rate of bomb penetration in my testing, as far as I know game performance has been consistent across updates here. yeah this is likely the case i dident do that many runs and from the tests (usually 5-10 hits from the bomb on said armor) if it dident pen at all i just rated it 0 chance dosent seem like bomb pen has been changed in my experience its pretty safe to assume that the ones saying no chance to pen can actually sometimes pen but only in very rare cases
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Post by christian on Mar 7, 2020 7:01:33 GMT -6
Just had a 500lb AP Bomb pen my BB’s 6.5” Deck. It was a ‘Hull hit D* Engines Disabled’ hit. I’ll post the pic later. That’s five full columns in the wrong direction for a 500 pounder. What’s going on? Off topic: Bloody hell, since the game has had start positions redone, I had an invasion defense mission that stretched my forces thin and beat me senseless. Fought three separate enemy groups, a BC scout force, a carrier force, and a transport fleet with battleship cover. What a challenging mission. I lost half of my capital ship fleet, and 34 total ships out of 56 ships were sunk. New features since v1.10 sure have made this game more fun. But these freak bomb pens are starting to worry me. a bit like the previous thing i noticed some small bombs also going through the VERY thick decks such as the 500 lb bomb going through a 5.5 inch deck or in your case 6.5 these arent "flukes" but merely bad luck and the fact that for some reason the game allows super small bombs to pierce extra thick decks which in real life would make no sense also with regards to the percentages for penetration used in the chart i could probably get more accurate results (the 70% was due to my low testing amount on each thickness (usually 5-10 bombs per armor thickness and per bomb size) i could have gotten it more precise but i do have a soul and dont wanna waste 15-20 hours on watching a bunch of bombs hit id much rather play the game
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Post by dizzy on Mar 7, 2020 9:23:11 GMT -6
Just had a 500lb AP Bomb pen my BB’s 6.5” Deck. It was a ‘Hull hit D* Engines Disabled’ hit. I’ll post the pic later. That’s five full columns in the wrong direction for a 500 pounder. What’s going on? Off topic: Bloody hell, since the game has had start positions redone, I had an invasion defense mission that stretched my forces thin and beat me senseless. Fought three separate enemy groups, a BC scout force, a carrier force, and a transport fleet with battleship cover. What a challenging mission. I lost half of my capital ship fleet, and 34 total ships out of 56 ships were sunk. New features since v1.10 sure have made this game more fun. But these freak bomb pens are starting to worry me. a bit like the previous thing i noticed some small bombs also going through the VERY thick decks such as the 500 lb bomb going through a 5.5 inch deck or in your case 6.5 these arent "flukes" but merely bad luck and the fact that for some reason the game allows super small bombs to pierce extra thick decks which in real life would make no sense also with regards to the percentages for penetration used in the chart i could probably get more accurate results (the 70% was due to my low testing amount on each thickness (usually 5-10 bombs per armor thickness and per bomb size) i could have gotten it more precise but i do have a soul and dont wanna waste 15-20 hours on watching a bunch of bombs hit id much rather play the game I’m not knocking your work. I find it extremely useful. I use your chart as the baseline for deciding deck thickness on my ships. So thanks for the chart. It’s invaluable to me. I’m concerned about the outliers. Like you said occasionally, a small bomb will pen a deck it shouldn’t. Maybe it’s going down a funnel? I dunno, but maybe the devs need to look into it.
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Post by seawolf on Mar 7, 2020 10:27:21 GMT -6
Been collecting historical data Bomb Type | <1000lb SAP | >=1000lb SAP | 600-1000lb AP | 1000-1600lb AP | <1600lb AP | Max Penetration | 2” | 3” | No data | 5” | 6” |
Its important to note that theres no 500lb or less AP bombs in the pacific war the Brits and Germans also had AP bombs but I can’t find penetration data AP bombs should also have significantly more passthroughs for unarmored ships based on what I’ve been reading
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Post by christian on Mar 7, 2020 11:32:52 GMT -6
Been collecting historical data Bomb Type | <1000lb SAP | <=1000lb SAP | 600-1000lb AP | 1000-1600lb AP | <1600lb AP | Max Penetration | 2” | 3” | No data | 5” | 6” |
Its important to note that theres no 500lb or less AP bombs in the pacific war the Brits and Germans also had AP bombs but I can’t find penetration data AP bombs should also have significantly more passthroughs for unarmored ships based on what I’ve been reading yeah late game especially most ships cant withstand bombs since they are 1000 lbs + especially cruisers suffer hard from even light bomb loads
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Mar 7, 2020 16:23:07 GMT -6
a bit like the previous thing i noticed some small bombs also going through the VERY thick decks such as the 500 lb bomb going through a 5.5 inch deck or in your case 6.5 these arent "flukes" but merely bad luck and the fact that for some reason the game allows super small bombs to pierce extra thick decks which in real life would make no sense also with regards to the percentages for penetration used in the chart i could probably get more accurate results (the 70% was due to my low testing amount on each thickness (usually 5-10 bombs per armor thickness and per bomb size) i could have gotten it more precise but i do have a soul and dont wanna waste 15-20 hours on watching a bunch of bombs hit id much rather play the game I’m not knocking your work. I find it extremely useful. I use your chart as the baseline for deciding deck thickness on my ships. So thanks for the chart. It’s invaluable to me. I’m concerned about the outliers. Like you said occasionally, a small bomb will pen a deck it shouldn’t. Maybe it’s going down a funnel? I dunno, but maybe the devs need to look into it. Funnels and similar openings aren't unarmoured, there is extremely heavy duty armour grade grating in such locations. It's possible they were generally weaker than rest of the armour in effective protection, but my impression has been that they were insanely thick to compensate for grating being weaker than plate of equivelent thickness.
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Post by seawolf on Mar 7, 2020 19:18:19 GMT -6
Been collecting historical data Bomb Type | <1000lb SAP | <=1000lb SAP | 600-1000lb AP | 1000-1600lb AP | <1600lb AP | Max Penetration | 2” | 3” | No data | 5” | 6” |
Its important to note that theres no 500lb or less AP bombs in the pacific war the Brits and Germans also had AP bombs but I can’t find penetration data AP bombs should also have significantly more passthroughs for unarmored ships based on what I’ve been reading yeah late game especially most ships cant withstand bombs since they are 1000 lbs + especially cruisers suffer hard from even light bomb loads Its still significantly worse in game than it should be
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Post by christian on Mar 7, 2020 19:20:32 GMT -6
yeah late game especially most ships cant withstand bombs since they are 1000 lbs + especially cruisers suffer hard from even light bomb loads Its still significantly worse in game than it should be oh yeah def irl 3 inches usually stopped everything under around 1000 lbs in game not so much
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Post by dorn on Mar 8, 2020 5:05:16 GMT -6
Its still significantly worse in game than it should be oh yeah def irl 3 inches usually stopped everything under around 1000 lbs in game not so much I am not quite sure if 3" of deck armour should stop everything under around 1000 lbs. Theoretically 1000 lbs AP bomb should penetrate 3" of deck armour however it seems that practically it does not as theoretical conditions were not met and usually bombs were released in not optimal height etc. Another thing which Wiliam notice is that about 15 % of citadel is not covered by such armour which is probably true except carriers when deck armour usually protect whole hangar. But it still seems that in RTW2 penetration is more like theoretical penetration with taking into consideration that deck does not cover whole area. In reality penetration of deck over 5" of armour was practically very difficult on sea. note: if we look at british armoured carrier no deck of these carriers was penetrated by lower than 1000 kg and in one case there is mentioned in report that penetration was just by small margin. But to have more study hits on warships at sea would help. Right now it seems that except capital ships, deck armour as protection against bombs is waste. note2: A lot of bombs were quite unreliable and it was better during the war. May be it could be interesting that all nations have reliability of each bomb randomly set up during introduction and during the war new type of bombs are introduced. May be in similar fashion as quality of guns with similar properties as reliability of aircrafts.
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Post by dorn on Mar 8, 2020 12:07:35 GMT -6
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Post by christian on Apr 8, 2020 7:21:37 GMT -6
oh yeah def irl 3 inches usually stopped everything under around 1000 lbs in game not so much I am not quite sure if 3" of deck armour should stop everything under around 1000 lbs. Theoretically 1000 lbs AP bomb should penetrate 3" of deck armour however it seems that practically it does not as theoretical conditions were not met and usually bombs were released in not optimal height etc. Another thing which Wiliam notice is that about 15 % of citadel is not covered by such armour which is probably true except carriers when deck armour usually protect whole hangar. But it still seems that in RTW2 penetration is more like theoretical penetration with taking into consideration that deck does not cover whole area. In reality penetration of deck over 5" of armour was practically very difficult on sea. note: if we look at british armoured carrier no deck of these carriers was penetrated by lower than 1000 kg and in one case there is mentioned in report that penetration was just by small margin. But to have more study hits on warships at sea would help. Right now it seems that except capital ships, deck armour as protection against bombs is waste. note2: A lot of bombs were quite unreliable and it was better during the war. May be it could be interesting that all nations have reliability of each bomb randomly set up during introduction and during the war new type of bombs are introduced. May be in similar fashion as quality of guns with similar properties as reliability of aircrafts. it is worth noting that most battleships by 1940 had atleast 100-150mm of deck armor (usually more) this was either done with one thick deck and a thick weathering deck over the citadel as an example the yamato had 50mm weather deck over the citadel covering and the armored deck below the weather deck was 200mm (and the angled edges 220mm) this means the armor was effectively 250mm and it was also spaced so the first 50mm were likely to ignite the fuse of an AP bomb the iowa had a 32mm weather deck and below it 178mm of deck armor giving it over 8 inches of effective deck armor for comparison the north carolina had 140 to 127mm of deck armor (with a 19mm weather deck) and the KGV 150-64mm deck (cant find weathering deck info) do remember that battleships deck armor when it could resist shells could also resist most bombs in use as unlike in game having a 500kg bomb (1100 lbs) was very very unusual and most nations did not have bombs for their dive bombers beyond 1000 lbs (450kg) and if they did they were usually the far bigger AP bombs carried by twin engine bombers or late war bombs (japanese 800kg AP bomb comes to mind) germans used alot of heavy 500-2000 kg AP bombs from twin engine planes for example the iowa never needed 178mm deck armor against japanese bombs because the largest they fielded until 1944 was 500 - 250 lbs SAP bomb (unless the japanese wanted to do level bombing) and they had 0 AP bombs outside of those dropped from level bombing torpedo bombers
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 8, 2020 11:42:41 GMT -6
I think it's rather the other way around with AP bombs during WW2, 1,000 lbs was pretty much the minimum size for true AP bomb and bombs of that weight and up were exactly as common as AP bombs were in general.
That Japanese never adopted a 500 kg AP bomb is bit of an oddity, the 500 kg (or actually 491 kg) ordinary (SAP) bomb they had was rated to penetrate 80mm.
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Post by seawolf on Apr 8, 2020 13:03:28 GMT -6
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Post by christian on Apr 8, 2020 15:07:43 GMT -6
I think it's rather the other way around with AP bombs during WW2, 1,000 lbs was pretty much the minimum size for true AP bomb and bombs of that weight and up were exactly as common as AP bombs were in general. That Japanese never adopted a 500 kg AP bomb is bit of an oddity, the 500 kg (or actually 491 kg) ordinary (SAP) bomb they had was rated to penetrate 80mm. they did adopt a 800 kg AP bomb late war for the d4y1-d4y4 which had very respectable performance though since it could only be used on the d4y4 they werent put much into use
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2020 19:53:51 GMT -6
The deck armour of the CVs should not be allowed to be thinner than 3.5in, as this is always useless and it just screws up the players that do not watch these forums.
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