|
Post by seawolf on May 2, 2020 2:23:30 GMT -6
The deck armour of the CVs should not be allowed to be thinner than 3.5in, as this is always useless and it just screws up the players that do not watch these forums. Rather, I think, the armor penetration of bombs should be lowered to match their real life counterparts
|
|
|
Post by christian on May 2, 2020 4:44:10 GMT -6
The deck armour of the CVs should not be allowed to be thinner than 3.5in, as this is always useless and it just screws up the players that do not watch these forums. Rather, I think, the armor penetration of bombs should be lowered to match their real life counterparts i agree currently you have to armor your carrier to an insane extent in 1940 to protect it from AP bombs
|
|
|
Post by corsair1 on Jun 2, 2020 14:39:50 GMT -6
Rather, I think, the armor penetration of bombs should be lowered to match their real life counterparts i agree currently you have to armor your carrier to an insane extent in 1940 to protect it from AP bombsĀ Is that really that unrealistic? The illustrious class had 3" of flight deck armour, and and at least one of them had their flight deck penetrated by AP bombs. (I believe it was several bombs that penetrated on one occasion, one of them being 800 ib AP) After 1940 most nations have >1000 ib AP bombs for their dive bombers. Best defense for carriers is not flight deck armour, it's cap fighters and AA guns. I never have more than 3" of flight deck armour, but 50% of aircraft capacity is fighters + my CVL's only carry fighters supplementing cap over fleet carriers. On my last campaign i lost only 2 fleet carriers and 3 CVL's to enemy airplanes.
|
|
|
Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2020 0:25:55 GMT -6
i agree currently you have to armor your carrier to an insane extent in 1940 to protect it from AP bombsĀ Is that really that unrealistic? The illustrious class had 3" of flight deck armour, and and at least one of them had their flight deck penetrated by AP bombs. (I believe it was several bombs that penetrated on one occasion, one of them being 800 ib AP) After 1940 most nations have >1000 ib AP bombs for their dive bombers. Best defense for carriers is not flight deck armour, it's cap fighters and AA guns. I never have more than 3" of flight deck armour, but 50% of aircraft capacity is fighters + my CVL's only carry fighters supplementing cap over fleet carriers. On my last campaign i lost only 2 fleet carriers and 3 CVL's to enemy airplanes. According to the reports and analysis only 1000 kg bombs penetrated armoured deck but I am not certain if any 500 kg bomb hit armoured deck. Even one case it was analysed that bomb just barerely penetrated her armoured flight deck. And no 500 lbs bomb penetrated armoured deck. If I remember well main reason for that in the Mediterranean was that German pilots release bombs lower to increase accuracy and thus probability of hit. Japanese pilots did not used ordnance again British Pacifuc fleet that in normal circumstances can penetetrate their armoured flight deck. There are a lot of variables that have effects on penetration but usually most important is penetration power of the bomb itself (mostly type and weight), release height (penetration vs. accuracy) and speed of dive bomber at release height.
|
|
|
Post by seawolf on Jun 3, 2020 1:24:58 GMT -6
Is that really that unrealistic? The illustrious class had 3" of flight deck armour, and and at least one of them had their flight deck penetrated by AP bombs. (I believe it was several bombs that penetrated on one occasion, one of them being 800 ib AP) After 1940 most nations have >1000 ib AP bombs for their dive bombers. Best defense for carriers is not flight deck armour, it's cap fighters and AA guns. I never have more than 3" of flight deck armour, but 50% of aircraft capacity is fighters + my CVL's only carry fighters supplementing cap over fleet carriers. On my last campaign i lost only 2 fleet carriers and 3 CVL's to enemy airplanes. According to the reports and analysis only 1000 kg bombs penetrated armoured deck but I am not certain if any 500 kg bomb hit armoured deck. Even one case it was analysed that bomb just barerely penetrated her armoured flight deck. And no 500 lbs bomb penetrated armoured deck. If I remember well main reason for that in the Mediterranean was that German pilots release bombs lower to increase accuracy and thus probability of hit. Japanese pilots did not used ordnance again British Pacifuc fleet that in normal circumstances can penetetrate their armoured flight deck. There are a lot of variables that have effects on penetration but usually most important is penetration power of the bomb itself (mostly type and weight), release height (penetration vs. accuracy) and speed of dive bomber at release height. Another thing that you might want to bring up with the devs is that any armored deck has 1 to 2 inches of structural steel or STS attached to the armor plate. This increases the relative thickness by a considerable bit(probably an additional 1/2 to 1 inch) but isn't accounted for in game. This is of course in addition to the relative overpenetration of bombs as seen in my previous posts relative to historical data
|
|
|
Post by Antediluvian Monster on Jun 3, 2020 5:15:52 GMT -6
Is that really that unrealistic? The illustrious class had 3" of flight deck armour, and and at least one of them had their flight deck penetrated by AP bombs. (I believe it was several bombs that penetrated on one occasion, one of them being 800 ib AP) After 1940 most nations have >1000 ib AP bombs for their dive bombers. Best defense for carriers is not flight deck armour, it's cap fighters and AA guns. I never have more than 3" of flight deck armour, but 50% of aircraft capacity is fighters + my CVL's only carry fighters supplementing cap over fleet carriers. On my last campaign i lost only 2 fleet carriers and 3 CVL's to enemy airplanes. According to the reports and analysis only 1000 kg bombs penetrated armoured deck but I am not certain if any 500 kg bomb hit armoured deck. Even one case it was analysed that bomb just barerely penetrated her armoured flight deck. And no 500 lbs bomb penetrated armoured deck. If I remember well main reason for that in the Mediterranean was that German pilots release bombs lower to increase accuracy and thus probability of hit. Japanese pilots did not used ordnance again British Pacifuc fleet that in normal circumstances can penetetrate their armoured flight deck. There are a lot of variables that have effects on penetration but usually most important is penetration power of the bomb itself (mostly type and weight), release height (penetration vs. accuracy) and speed of dive bomber at release height. I don't think it's right to say with certitude that 1000kg bombs hit or penetrated any of the British armoured carriers. Rather it's subject of debate whether some 1000kg bombs were involved or if they were all just 500kg. E.g. DK Brown p. 205 in Nelson to Vanguard gives "550kg" and "1000lb" bombs and states "I have quoted the official reports". What I think can be said with certitude is that no 500kg AP bombs were ever defeated by the British flight decks (they were not designed to do so anyway). The problem in the game is more the prevalence of AP bombs. For example 3" AFDs would have been great for Japanese at Midway since US carriers did not carry AP bombs at that time.
|
|
|
Post by dorn on Jun 3, 2020 12:36:48 GMT -6
According to the reports and analysis only 1000 kg bombs penetrated armoured deck but I am not certain if any 500 kg bomb hit armoured deck. Even one case it was analysed that bomb just barerely penetrated her armoured flight deck. And no 500 lbs bomb penetrated armoured deck. If I remember well main reason for that in the Mediterranean was that German pilots release bombs lower to increase accuracy and thus probability of hit. Japanese pilots did not used ordnance again British Pacifuc fleet that in normal circumstances can penetetrate their armoured flight deck. There are a lot of variables that have effects on penetration but usually most important is penetration power of the bomb itself (mostly type and weight), release height (penetration vs. accuracy) and speed of dive bomber at release height. I don't think it's right to say with certitude that 1000kg bombs hit or penetrated any of the British armoured carriers. Rather it's subject of debate whether some 1000kg bombs were involved or if they were all just 500kg. E.g. DK Brown p. 205 in Nelson to Vanguard gives "550kg" and "1000lb" bombs and states "I have quoted the official reports". What I think can be said with certitude is that no 500kg AP bombs were ever defeated by the British flight decks (they were not designed to do so anyway). The problem in the game is more the prevalence of AP bombs. For example 3" AFDs would have been great for Japanese at Midway since US carriers did not carry AP bombs at that time. You are right it is more precise to stated that. The only disputed hit is the bomb hit to HMS Illustrious in January 1941 on flight deck. Original reports stated 500 kg bomb but later analysis in US dockyard and Royal Navy change it 1000 kg bomb. But as you stated her armoured deck was not designed to withstand 500 kg AP bomb. German bombers usually release bombs from lower altitude than expected (designed for) but it is in question if it was low enough not to penetrate her deck armour and more likely it was not. note: If DK Brown stated 550 kg bomb it seems certainly wrong as Germans does not use such bomb as European continental power use kg and USN and RN lbs, so usually 250, 500, 1000 kg and 500, 1000 and 2000 lbs.
|
|
|
Post by Antediluvian Monster on Jun 3, 2020 12:51:41 GMT -6
550kg probably refers to PC 500 E, which had exact weight of 539kg.
|
|
|
Post by christian on Aug 7, 2020 1:50:11 GMT -6
i agree currently you have to armor your carrier to an insane extent in 1940 to protect it from AP bombs Is that really that unrealistic? The illustrious class had 3" of flight deck armour, and and at least one of them had their flight deck penetrated by AP bombs. (I believe it was several bombs that penetrated on one occasion, one of them being 800 ib AP) After 1940 most nations have >1000 ib AP bombs for their dive bombers. Best defense for carriers is not flight deck armour, it's cap fighters and AA guns. I never have more than 3" of flight deck armour, but 50% of aircraft capacity is fighters + my CVL's only carry fighters supplementing cap over fleet carriers. On my last campaign i lost only 2 fleet carriers and 3 CVL's to enemy airplanes. the extent we have to go to in game is currently we have to armor our ship with 4.5 inches armor against 800 lb bombs keep in mind that unlike real life most divebombers in game carry 1200-1500 lb bombs in 1940 while in real life its quite hard to find bombs above 1000 lbs in weight being used by aircraft carriers due to weight and range limitations such payloads impose though by 1945 1000lb bombs were becoming more common
|
|
azoth
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by azoth on Sept 3, 2020 11:30:34 GMT -6
I wonder if armor technology has an effect here?
|
|
|
Post by christian on Sept 22, 2020 13:36:06 GMT -6
I wonder if armor technology has an effect here? it does these tests were done with armor tech 25
|
|
|
Post by fuzzmunster on Apr 26, 2021 13:06:22 GMT -6
Unarmoured carrier gang rise. I don't put deck armor on carriers unless I expect them to be in the med or Caribbean. It makes the carrier at least 25% more expensive and I'd rather have 5 carriers instead of 4. I add a lot of CAP and stupid amount of AA that make late war US look like they're slacking.
The amount of weight you need to properly amor your carriers against 1000-1400 lbs bombs is insane. I just put regular deck armor to 4 and set it to magazine box so my ship doesn't explode. IMO CAP and AA are USUALLY better because they also protect against torpedo bombers. Even with TPS 4 a large carrier battle can easily see 100+ torpedo bomber sorties against you. If only 10% get through your carriers are dead. Deck armor won't help you.
|
|