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Post by janxol on Nov 6, 2019 9:33:20 GMT -6
Also, here would be a springsharp conversion of one of my larger ships. I suck at springsharp though.
Nice design, I use diesels for my raiders when I've reached that point in research. One suggestion, pay close attention to length to beam ratio. 7 or higher will give you more speed for less power requirements.
Yes, though in this case i was more worried about stability and it seemed I needed draft and beam rather than length. Also this is definitely not a raider, but at this point i had supercharged diesels unlocked so they were simply lighter than oil fired steam.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 6, 2019 10:05:25 GMT -6
Yes, though in this case i was more worried about stability and it seemed I needed draft and beam rather than length. Also this is definitely not a raider, but at this point i had supercharged diesels unlocked so they were simply lighter than oil fired steam. Ok, I wasn't certain that you understood, its hard in forum's. Here is a section of my redesign of the Midway adding quick firing guns.
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Post by janxol on Nov 6, 2019 11:05:45 GMT -6
Yes, though in this case i was more worried about stability and it seemed I needed draft and beam rather than length. Also this is definitely not a raider, but at this point i had supercharged diesels unlocked so they were simply lighter than oil fired steam. Ok, I wasn't certain that you understood, its hard in forum's. Here is a section of my redesign of the Midway adding quick firing guns. That doesnt seem to make sense to me. 40mm are definitely not quick firing in this period. Quick firing (QF or RF) means that the shell and casing are one piece (no separate charge) and not an autocannon. Typically most sub-6 inch anti-surface guns would be quick-firing. Int his case i would say main battery is breech loading, 127mm battery is dual-purpose or (if unable to engage aircraft) quick-firing. the 40mm and 20mm would be anti-air guns.
Then again it's just semantics and I'm not sure springsharp cares.
According to a guide/manual I found for springsharp: Muzzle Loading: this is for guns left over from the age of sail. Breech Loading: abbreviated "BL"; your standard type for guns generally larger than 4-6" Quick Firing: abbreviated "QF" on British guns and "RF" for rapid fire on American gun; sliding-breech, with single-piece or "cased" ammunition; as a guide, British guns 6" and smaller from WW1 on are typically QF Anti-Air: abbreviated "AA" or "AAG"; it is reasonable to also use this for small or pre-1920 QF HA mounts. Dual Purpose: abbreviated "DP"; a gun which is suitable for both anti-surface and anti-air work; a post-1920 QF HA mount is usually this. An example of a DP gun would be the US 5"/38
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 6, 2019 11:13:01 GMT -6
Ok, I wasn't certain that you understood, its hard in forum's. Here is a section of my redesign of the Midway adding quick firing guns. That doesnt seem to make sense to me. 40mm are definitely not quick firing in this period. Quick firing (QF or RF) means that the shell and casing are one piece (no separate charge) and not an autocannon. Typically most sub-6 inch anti-surface guns would be quick-firing. Int his case i would say main battery is breech loading, 127mm battery is dual-purpose or (if unable to engage aircraft) quick-firing. the 40mm and 20mm would be anti-air guns.
Then again it's just semantics and I'm not sure springsharp cares.
According to a guide/manual I found for springsharp: Muzzle Loading: this is for guns left over from the age of sail. Breech Loading: abbreviated "BL"; your standard type for guns generally larger than 4-6" Quick Firing: abbreviated "QF" on British guns and "RF" for rapid fire on American gun; sliding-breech, with single-piece or "cased" ammunition; as a guide, British guns 6" and smaller from WW1 on are typically QF Anti-Air: abbreviated "AA" or "AAG"; it is reasonable to also use this for small or pre-1920 QF HA mounts. Dual Purpose: abbreviated "DP"; a gun which is suitable for both anti-surface and anti-air work; a post-1920 QF HA mount is usually this. An example of a DP gun would be the US 5"/38
Here is the Midway with the changes for 40mm and 20mm to dual purpose - Armament: 8 - 18.00" / 457 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3,087.00lbs / 1,400.24kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model 4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model 6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.12lbs / 0.96kg shells, 150 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 10 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 150 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model 10 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward Weight of broadside 25,444 lbs / 11,541 kg
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 6, 2019 11:33:45 GMT -6
I've made a third change to 2nd and 3rd batteries - They are now auto rapid fire guns on deck and host mounts - They have to be on deck and hoist mounts
Armament: 8 - 18.00" / 457 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3,087.00lbs / 1,400.24kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model 4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model 6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.12lbs / 0.96kg shells, 150 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 10 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 150 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model 10 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward Weight of broadside 25,444 lbs / 11,541 kg
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spacenerd4
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Appreciating our feline friends
Posts: 164
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Post by spacenerd4 on Nov 30, 2020 20:19:10 GMT -6
Sorry for necroposting, but here's my battleship design for an alternate-history Germany based upon one of my RTW2 games. Sorry in advance for mixed units!
Kaiser-class, Deutschland Linenschiff laid down 1940 (Engine 1942)
Displacement:
54,313 t light; 57,719 t standard; 61,512 t normal; 64,546 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
968.16 ft / 944.88 ft x 113.19 ft (Bulges 114.83 ft) x 35.43 ft (normal load)
295.09 m / 288.00 m x 34.50 m (Bulges 35.00 m) x 10.80 m
Armament:
8 - 18.00" / 457 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3,262.84lbs / 1,480.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6 mounts), 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x6 guns), 2.20lbs / 1.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
88 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x11 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 27,640 lbs / 12,537 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.5" / 368 mm 480.34 ft / 146.41 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 8.50" / 216 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.22 ft / 2.20 m
Main Belt covers 78 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
2.50" / 64 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 15.0" / 381 mm 16.0" / 406 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 2.50" / 64 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
- Armour deck: 4.80" / 122 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 123,051 shp / 91,796 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,827 tons
Complement:
1,952 - 2,538
Cost:
£29.964 million / $119.855 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,146 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 22,098 tons, 35.9 %
- Belts: 6,568 tons, 10.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,563 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 6,530 tons, 10.6 %
- Armour Deck: 6,967 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Tower: 470 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,215 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 25,854 tons, 42.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,199 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
106,675 lbs / 48,387 Kg = 36.6 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 17.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 19.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.560
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 35.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m
- Forecastle (16 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (14 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (26.25 ft / 8.00 m before break)
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.4 %
Waterplane Area: 78,456 Square feet or 7,289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 237 lbs/sq ft or 1,158 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 30, 2020 22:09:33 GMT -6
Sorry for necroposting, but here's my battleship design for an alternate-history Germany based upon one of my RTW2 games. Sorry in advance for mixed units! Kaiser-class, Deutschland Linenschiff laid down 1940 (Engine 1942) Displacement: 54,313 t light; 57,719 t standard; 61,512 t normal; 64,546 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 968.16 ft / 944.88 ft x 113.19 ft (Bulges 114.83 ft) x 35.43 ft (normal load) 295.09 m / 288.00 m x 34.50 m (Bulges 35.00 m) x 10.80 m Armament: 8 - 18.00" / 457 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3,262.84lbs / 1,480.00kg shells, 1940 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts Aft Main mounts separated by engine room 16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6 mounts), 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 1940 Model Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes) on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts 48 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x6 guns), 2.20lbs / 1.00kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts 88 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x11 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount Weight of broadside 27,640 lbs / 12,537 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 140 8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 14.5" / 368 mm 480.34 ft / 146.41 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m Ends: Unarmoured Upper: 8.50" / 216 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.22 ft / 2.20 m Main Belt covers 78 % of normal length - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges: 2.50" / 64 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 15.0" / 381 mm 16.0" / 406 mm 2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 2.50" / 64 mm 3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm - - - Armour deck: 4.80" / 122 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 123,051 shp / 91,796 Kw = 28.00 kts Range 12,800nm at 14.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 6,827 tons Complement: 1,952 - 2,538 Cost: £29.964 million / $119.855 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3,146 tons, 5.1 % Armour: 22,098 tons, 35.9 % - Belts: 6,568 tons, 10.7 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,563 tons, 2.5 % - Armament: 6,530 tons, 10.6 % - Armour Deck: 6,967 tons, 11.3 % - Conning Tower: 470 tons, 0.8 % Machinery: 3,215 tons, 5.2 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 25,854 tons, 42.0 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,199 tons, 11.7 % Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 106,675 lbs / 48,387 Kg = 36.6 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 17.8 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04 Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m Roll period: 19.0 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38 Hull form characteristics: Hull has low quarterdeck and transom stern Block coefficient: 0.560 Length to Beam Ratio: 8.23 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 35.39 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees Stern overhang: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 27.89 ft / 8.50 m - Forecastle (16 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m - Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m - Quarterdeck (14 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (26.25 ft / 8.00 m before break) - Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Average freeboard: 25.43 ft / 7.75 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.7 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.4 % Waterplane Area: 78,456 Square feet or 7,289 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 237 lbs/sq ft or 1,158 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.98 - Longitudinal: 1.18 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily Freeboard is 1.1 X Sq. of the length. Based on your length, your freeboard should be 34.223 feet. It should eliminate the wet forward which will affect your gunnery.
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spacenerd4
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Appreciating our feline friends
Posts: 164
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Post by spacenerd4 on Dec 1, 2020 6:43:17 GMT -6
I was basing it off the Bismarck and SoDak templates and those had lower freeboards than your designs.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 1, 2020 8:53:32 GMT -6
I was basing it off the Bismarck and SoDak templates and those had lower freeboards than your designs. Yes and they were actually wet forward, so why not make your own modifications and increase the freeboard in the forecastle then decrease it to 30 feet midships then aft.
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spacenerd4
Full Member
Appreciating our feline friends
Posts: 164
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Post by spacenerd4 on Dec 1, 2020 11:22:55 GMT -6
I was basing it off the Bismarck and SoDak templates and those had lower freeboards than your designs. Yes and they were actually wet forward, so why not make your own modifications and increase the freeboard in the forecastle then decrease it to 30 feet midships then aft. Disregarding that, can you evaluate the rest of the ship? Let's just say the Kaiser ordered point-blank fire from A turret be possible like the KGV class.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 1, 2020 11:26:28 GMT -6
Well, why don't you put together a KGV design and then compare them. I don't have time today but I can start later or tomorrow.
Here is the design modified for 34.6 feet in the forecastle and 20.6 feet for the rest of the hull. She is not wet forward but probably weighs less because I used the Bismarck's exact length and beam.
Bismarck, Deutschland Battleship laid down 1936
Displacement: 40,177 t light; 42,209 t standard; 46,919 t normal; 50,687 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (823.79 ft / 792.49 ft) x 118.11 ft x (30.51 / 32.41 ft) (251.09 m / 241.55 m) x 36.00 m x (9.30 / 9.88 m)
Armament: 8 - 14.96" / 380 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,763.70lbs / 800.00kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model 6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority aft 16 - 4.13" / 105 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1933 Model 8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.29lbs / 0.13kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 raised mounts 4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 4 raised mounts Weight of broadside 15,940 lbs / 7,230 kg
Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 229.33 ft / 69.90 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m 0.82 ft / 0.25 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 5.71" / 145 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.77" / 45 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m
- Hull Bulges: 0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 13.4" / 340 mm 2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.30" / 33 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.84" / 123 mm For and Aft decks Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 4.84" / 123 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 119,811 shp / 89,379 Kw = 28.67 kts Range 8,525nm at 19.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 8,478 tons
Complement: 1,593 - 2,072
Cost: £17.459 million / $69.835 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3,230 tons, 6.9 % Armour: 17,296 tons, 36.9 % - Belts: 6,648 tons, 14.2 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,108 tons, 2.4 % - Armament: 3,264 tons, 7.0 % - Armour Deck: 5,890 tons, 12.6 % - Conning Tower: 386 tons, 0.8 % Machinery: 3,362 tons, 7.2 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,204 tons, 34.5 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,742 tons, 14.4 % Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 % - Hull below water: 83 tons - Hull void weights: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 89,272 lbs / 40,493 Kg = 53.3 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 17.4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13 Metacentric height 8.1 ft / 2.5 m Roll period: 17.4 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, a normal bow and large transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.585 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.71 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 32.92 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.00 degrees Stern overhang: 9.68 ft / 2.95 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 16.00 %, 34.60 ft / 10.55 m, 28.60 ft / 8.72 m - Forward deck: 34.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Aft deck: 37.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Average freeboard: 22.26 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.1 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.4 % Waterplane Area: 69,660 Square feet or 6,472 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 970 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.98 - Longitudinal: 1.19 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Bismarck, Deutschland Battleship laid down 1936
Displacement: 40,177 t light; 42,209 t standard; 46,919 t normal; 50,687 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (823.79 ft / 792.49 ft) x 118.11 ft x (30.51 / 32.41 ft) (251.09 m / 241.55 m) x 36.00 m x (9.30 / 9.88 m)
Armament: 8 - 14.96" / 380 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,763.70lbs / 800.00kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model 6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority aft 16 - 4.13" / 105 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1933 Model 8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.29lbs / 0.13kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 raised mounts 4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 4 raised mounts Weight of broadside 15,940 lbs / 7,230 kg
Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 229.33 ft / 69.90 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m 0.82 ft / 0.25 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 5.71" / 145 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.77" / 45 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m
- Hull Bulges: 0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 13.4" / 340 mm 2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.30" / 33 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.84" / 123 mm For and Aft decks Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 4.84" / 123 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 119,811 shp / 89,379 Kw = 28.67 kts Range 8,525nm at 19.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 8,478 tons
Complement: 1,593 - 2,072
Cost: £17.459 million / $69.835 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3,230 tons, 6.9 % Armour: 17,296 tons, 36.9 % - Belts: 6,648 tons, 14.2 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,108 tons, 2.4 % - Armament: 3,264 tons, 7.0 % - Armour Deck: 5,890 tons, 12.6 % - Conning Tower: 386 tons, 0.8 % Machinery: 3,362 tons, 7.2 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,204 tons, 34.5 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,742 tons, 14.4 % Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 % - Hull below water: 83 tons - Hull void weights: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 89,272 lbs / 40,493 Kg = 53.3 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 17.4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13 Metacentric height 8.1 ft / 2.5 m Roll period: 17.4 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, a normal bow and large transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.585 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.71 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 32.92 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.00 degrees Stern overhang: 9.68 ft / 2.95 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 16.00 %, 34.60 ft / 10.55 m, 28.60 ft / 8.72 m - Forward deck: 34.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Aft deck: 37.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Average freeboard: 22.26 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.1 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.4 % Waterplane Area: 69,660 Square feet or 6,472 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 970 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.98 - Longitudinal: 1.19 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Bismarck, Deutschland Battleship laid down 1936
Displacement: 40,177 t light; 42,209 t standard; 46,919 t normal; 50,687 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (823.79 ft / 792.49 ft) x 118.11 ft x (30.51 / 32.41 ft) (251.09 m / 241.55 m) x 36.00 m x (9.30 / 9.88 m)
Armament: 8 - 14.96" / 380 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,763.70lbs / 800.00kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model 6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority aft 16 - 4.13" / 105 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1933 Model 8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 raised mounts 16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.29lbs / 0.13kg shells, 150 per gun Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 raised mounts 4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 4 raised mounts Weight of broadside 15,940 lbs / 7,230 kg
Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 229.33 ft / 69.90 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m 0.82 ft / 0.25 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 5.71" / 145 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.77" / 45 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m
- Hull Bulges: 0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 13.4" / 340 mm 2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.30" / 33 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.84" / 123 mm For and Aft decks Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 4.84" / 123 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 119,811 shp / 89,379 Kw = 28.67 kts Range 8,525nm at 19.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 8,478 tons
Complement: 1,593 - 2,072
Cost: £17.459 million / $69.835 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3,230 tons, 6.9 % Armour: 17,296 tons, 36.9 % - Belts: 6,648 tons, 14.2 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,108 tons, 2.4 % - Armament: 3,264 tons, 7.0 % - Armour Deck: 5,890 tons, 12.6 % - Conning Tower: 386 tons, 0.8 % Machinery: 3,362 tons, 7.2 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,204 tons, 34.5 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,742 tons, 14.4 % Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 % - Hull below water: 83 tons - Hull void weights: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 89,272 lbs / 40,493 Kg = 53.3 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 17.4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13 Metacentric height 8.1 ft / 2.5 m Roll period: 17.4 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, a normal bow and large transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.585 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.71 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 32.92 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.00 degrees Stern overhang: 9.68 ft / 2.95 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 16.00 %, 34.60 ft / 10.55 m, 28.60 ft / 8.72 m - Forward deck: 34.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Aft deck: 37.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m - Average freeboard: 22.26 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.1 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.4 % Waterplane Area: 69,660 Square feet or 6,472 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 970 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.98 - Longitudinal: 1.19 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 1, 2020 11:51:18 GMT -6
I just found this quote by Norman Friedman in his book, The British Battleships 1906-1946. It comes from the DNC or Director of Naval Construction for the Royal Navy.
DNC did not think so. He could not see why the German designer had made the ship so beamy. First Sea Lord thought the German hull ‘gave good results’ (in the context of the redesigned Lion), but DNC pointed out that Bismarck had been lucky to make her first and only cruise in relatively calm seas, otherwise it might have been obvious that she was too stiff and a poor seakeeper with too little freeboard. DNC thought that the beamy hull made sense only as a way of limiting draught; it made for a shallow hull with strength problems. He wrote First Sea Lord that ‘you may think I lack humility on this score, but if I had a free hand with regard to displacement and docking facilities I am confident I could have produced a better ship than Bismarck’. Wide beam did offer good underwater protection, but it would have been better had the ship had less beam amidships and more towards the ends of her citadel. The great beam offered a better target to plunging shells. The beamy hull form with fine ends was not particularly good hydrodynamically, either.
Friedman, Norman. The British Battleship 1906-1946 (p. 508). Seaforth Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Here is the Bismarck 2 design with the beam reduced to 105 feet which is almost the same as KGV.
Bismarck, Deutschland Battleship laid down 1936
Displacement:
38,276 t light; 40,266 t standard; 44,830 t normal; 48,482 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(823.79 ft / 792.49 ft) x 105.00 ft x (30.51 / 32.49 ft)
(251.09 m / 241.55 m) x 32.00 m x (9.30 / 9.90 m)
Armament:
8 - 14.96" / 380 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,763.70lbs / 800.00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority aft
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm 45.0 cal guns - 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1933 Model
8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.29lbs / 0.13kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,940 lbs / 7,230 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 229.33 ft / 69.90 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
0.82 ft / 0.25 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5.71" / 145 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 562.34 ft / 171.40 m 30.05 ft / 9.16 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 13.4" / 340 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.30" / 33 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.84" / 123 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 4.84" / 123 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 117,874 shp / 87,934 Kw = 28.67 kts
Range 8,525nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 8,216 tons
Complement:
1,539 - 2,002
Cost:
£17.068 million / $68.271 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,230 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 16,776 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 6,578 tons, 14.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,108 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 3,264 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 5,451 tons, 12.2 %
- Conning Tower: 375 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,307 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,877 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,554 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 %
- Hull below water: 83 tons
- Hull void weights: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
77,179 lbs / 35,008 Kg = 46.1 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 13.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 18.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.618 / 0.628
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.68 ft / 2.95 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 16.00 %, 34.60 ft / 10.55 m, 28.60 ft / 8.72 m
- Forward deck: 34.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m
- Aft deck: 37.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m, 20.60 ft / 6.28 m
- Average freeboard: 22.26 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.4 %
Waterplane Area: 64,526 Square feet or 5,995 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 932 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
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Post by gazimu on Dec 1, 2020 13:25:21 GMT -6
Just a couple of many designs I built which were literally just showing a friend of mine what monstrosities can be made at max dock limits. I won't try to argue them being at all viable, but they're certainly fitting the super battleship design theme.
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spacenerd4
Full Member
Appreciating our feline friends
Posts: 164
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Post by spacenerd4 on Dec 1, 2020 15:42:11 GMT -6
Interesting quote- I always wondered why the designers of Bismarck didn't go with a longer, thinner, and more elegant Hood-style hull shape.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 1, 2020 17:00:57 GMT -6
Interesting quote- I always wondered why the designers of Bismarck didn't go with a longer, thinner, and more elegant Hood-style hull shape. Here is another section of a piece in NAVWEAPS about the Bismarck. Apparently some German designers did not like the stability. The Germans devoted great attention to the displacement and stability of the Bismarck and Tirpitz. They recognized the need to provide great initial stability, with commensurate resistance to large lists after side compartments were damaged. A disadvantage of this stability was the short rolling period resulting from the large GM. The Bismarck was a lively gun platform and the ship's general behavior at sea was probably rather unpleasant, particularly in following seas, where rolling and yawing motions are coupled. The Bismarck had excessive stability in many respects in that her GM exceeded the "good design practice" standard for GM (at last 5%, but no more than 10%) of the beam. Too much stability results in an unduly "stiff" ship with somewhat unpleasant rolling characteristics which tend to degrade weapon's systems effectiveness. One factor in the design of all German ships was the depth of the Kiel Canal and a bridge which I believe was the LevenSau High Bridge. This limited the draught of the ships. The German designers were focused on the French Dunkerque as a possible foe, so designs were based on resisting that ship.
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