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Post by dizzy on Nov 12, 2019 12:26:34 GMT -6
The OoB for the ROC are a bit more than they should have in 1900, but Japan's economy should grow faster. The way I remember the 1st war, the German Battleships (read that as Netherland in this case because the ROC and Netherlands are friends) of the chinese navy were untouched and it led the Japanese to realize bigger ships were needed. I'm quite confident that all the big ships of the Beiyang navy were lost in one way or the other. Furthermore, RoC was too busy on the ground with the national unification thing to invest more in the navy. That said, a campaign focused on Japan would be rather incomplete without China, so some deviation from real world history is desirable, I would say. U.S. Secretary of the Navy Hilary A. Herbert, called the battle 'nearly a draw'. Yes, eight Chinese ships were sunk, but not their two heaviest. The Dingyuan and Zhenyuan got away after inflicting severe damage on the Japanese fleet. So... dunno what you're talking about the Chinese losing their big ships. They didn't lose any big ships. There's strong and lingering misconceptions about that battle on the Yalu. You're right about their naval issues, but they had Germany to help them. So who's to say that Germany (Netherlands in the case of this campaign) didn't help them more? You are right that a campaign focusing on Japan would be incomplete without China. I'm glad you said this. China at first starts off as a worthy adversary. What happens later in Empire of the Rising Sun campaign depends on how you initially handle them.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 12, 2019 13:20:55 GMT -6
It's pretty involved. I got through a good way and I just hit info overload. But what's clear is Japan was insane declaring war on the U.S. The economy numbers doomed Japan from the start. The only hope Japan had against the USA was a quick war in which they won with a decisive strike and a negotiated peace. They got neither. The whole pre-war episode for Japan was based on lack of information or assumptions that were not true. They had a copy of War Plan Orange which essentially stated we would assemble at Pearl Harbor and march across for a decisive battle near the Bonin's. This was pure Mahanian and the Japanese always subscribed to his ideas. The problem was the US Navy 1. Did not subscribe to the decisive battle idea 2. War Plan Orange was disestablished in 1940. We were not going to come across immediately. These two strategical errors caused their planning to go badly. Couple this with the invasion of China from Manchukuo and their movement into southern Indochina against the French will, made the problem worse. The China War was bankrupting the country and the other errors eliminated their ability to buy products from South America and the US because we had frozen their gold in our bank in early 1941 which they had anticipated. So, without that gold and the 80% of the oil they needed, their only plan was to move south. Well if they did that with 90% of their fleet, who would stay in Japan to protect the country against the decisive battle that they assumed we would provoke. So, Yamamoto's only recourse according to this logic was to attack our base in Oahu and give his navy time to move south, and capture the needed natural resources then go after our fleet in a decisive battle. One of the problems with this line of thought is very simple. The enemy always has a say in your plans. This is a mistake the Japanese made throughout the war. They had a book which they followed. We had a book, we read it, then we did exactly what we wanted to do and most of time, it wasn't in the book. The whole pre-war and early war strategical planning and actions were based on out of date information. They also did not realize that an unprovoked attack on our fleet was the worse thing they could do, because all it did was to "arouse a sleeping giant, and fill him with resolve". Yamamoto's own words.
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Post by griffin01 on Nov 13, 2019 10:29:21 GMT -6
I'm quite confident that all the big ships of the Beiyang navy were lost in one way or the other. Furthermore, RoC was too busy on the ground with the national unification thing to invest more in the navy. That said, a campaign focused on Japan would be rather incomplete without China, so some deviation from real world history is desirable, I would say. U.S. Secretary of the Navy Hilary A. Herbert, called the battle 'nearly a draw'. Yes, eight Chinese ships were sunk, but not their two heaviest. The Dingyuan and Zhenyuan got away after inflicting severe damage on the Japanese fleet. So... dunno what you're talking about the Chinese losing their big ships. They didn't lose any big ships. There's strong and lingering misconceptions about that battle on the Yalu. You're right about their naval issues, but they had Germany to help them. So who's to say that Germany (Netherlands in the case of this campaign) didn't help them more? You are right that a campaign focusing on Japan would be incomplete without China. I'm glad you said this. China at first starts off as a worthy adversary. What happens later in Empire of the Rising Sun campaign depends on how you initially handle them. I'm not talking about Yalu specifically. Later in the war, one of the battleships (Zhenyuan I think) was beached and was blown up after its end, and the other one (that would be Dingyuan if I got previous one right) was taken by the Japanese as a war prize. You are right, though, that Germany could have helped them more.
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Post by brygun on Nov 14, 2019 19:26:30 GMT -6
I rather agree China ought to have more of a role.
Assuming you can edit the bases China could have a heartland "base" acting as a homeport with a moderate amount of naval station capacity. Build zone in one of the Asia seas, probably Southeast Asia. Then add a few more coastal like zones for Manchuria and 1-3 others.
This then becomes more bases for invasions by the Japanese players navy.
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Post by dizzy on Nov 15, 2019 9:10:27 GMT -6
I rather agree China ought to have more of a role. Assuming you can edit the bases China could have a heartland "base" acting as a homeport with a moderate amount of naval station capacity. Build zone in one of the Asia seas, probably Southeast Asia. Then add a few more coastal like zones for Manchuria and 1-3 others. This then becomes more bases for invasions by the Japanese players navy. That's the way it is. China's build and home area is in SEA. The mod has been released. Check it out. It's in the mod forum.
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