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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 29, 2013 19:42:12 GMT -6
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Post by steel selachian on Oct 30, 2013 19:15:54 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 30, 2013 19:47:28 GMT -6
Interesting photos, but I worked on the Vinson when she was in that dock. I haven't really read anything useful, except brochure knowledge about the PLAN nukies, but I will keep looking.
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Post by steel selachian on Oct 31, 2013 18:01:46 GMT -6
I found the new elements of the Ford-class to be interesting. The larger flight deck and reduced island footprint will help with air ops. The "knuckle" at the bow was interesting - I'm not sure if I buy the idea that it's simply for ease of construction. On the Chinese SSN fleet, it appears that they released info on the development of their first-gen Type 091 boats - www.informationdissemination.net/2013/10/type-091-and-what-it-tells-us-about.html
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 6, 2013 18:05:28 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 6, 2013 19:07:33 GMT -6
Well, we lost Mare Island, Philadelphia, Brooklyn and Long Beach, so I guess its time for Portsmouth. Funny story about the closure of Alameda Naval Air Depot, well it is if you were at North Island. During the base closure hearings, the procedure was to close bases, then review and close depots. OOOPS! On Friday they closed Alameda Naval Air Station, then on Saturday the choice was between Naval Air Depot, North Island and Alameda Naval Air Depot, they won.....well no, because they had already closed the base, so good bye to Alameda Naval Air Depot. I watched the Saturday hearings, and they didn't realize the mistake until some in the committee said "Hey, we closed the base yesterday". Game, set and match to North Island Naval Air Depot. Just goes to show, that I'd rather be lucky than good. Heh Heh Heh!!!
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 9, 2013 10:46:01 GMT -6
With the trend of fewer ships, more efficient construction techniques, and longer service lives it's not that surprising. What makes Portsmouth a bit of a shock is both the very long history of that yard and the fact that England proper no longer has a major surface combatant yard on its territory. The RN has to be sweating the idea of Scotland voting for independence just a little. Speaking of shipyards, every now and then I'll take a look at the Jiangnan Shipyards near Shanghai. Supposedly that is where the first indigenous PLAN aircraft carriers are going to take shape, although given that the Hermit Kingdom lives up to its billing it's anyone's guess when or if that will start. In the meantime, you'll still see some interesting things. On Google Earth you'll spot what appears to be three of their new Type 052D DDGs fitting out, along with a pair of Type 052C DDGs. The PLAN has made some pretty impressive strides towards a first-class surface escort force in the past decade. www.informationdissemination.net/2013/11/the-future-of-plan-destroyers.html
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 9, 2013 11:22:59 GMT -6
With the trend of fewer ships, more efficient construction techniques, and longer service lives it's not that surprising. What makes Portsmouth a bit of a shock is both the very long history of that yard and the fact that England proper no longer has a major surface combatant yard on its territory. The RN has to be sweating the idea of Scotland voting for independence just a little. Speaking of shipyards, every now and then I'll take a look at the Jiangnan Shipyards near Shanghai. Supposedly that is where the first indigenous PLAN aircraft carriers are going to take shape, although given that the Hermit Kingdom lives up to its billing it's anyone's guess when or if that will start. In the meantime, you'll still see some interesting things. On Google Earth you'll spot what appears to be three of their new Type 052D DDGs fitting out, along with a pair of Type 052C DDGs. The PLAN has made some pretty impressive strides towards a first-class surface escort force in the past decade. www.informationdissemination.net/2013/11/the-future-of-plan-destroyers.html Its a matter of economics and maintenance. How old is the yard, and its facilities? How much will it cost to overhaul the facilities and bring them up to commercial standards because that is where the money is? Sea power and geopolitics have change the landscape although geography hasn't changed. If you examine where the main centers for the EU are located, they are on the traditional line from the North Sea area southward to the Alps. Some of the locations are exactly where the Carolingian empire was centered. The EU Commission is in Brussels, the EU court is in the Hague and the European Parliament is in Strasbourg etc. Look at Google Earth, see where they are situated. Its traditional. Things change, things stay the same. Once the yard is dismantled and turned over to the City, it will become a vibrant center for commerce with the EU and the other areas like the rimland and heartland; Far east, Middle east, etc. Even South America will be a main trade center.
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Post by steel selachian on Dec 14, 2013 10:31:47 GMT -6
Recent launching that I find somewhat interesting - www.defensenews.com/article/20131213/DEFREG01/312130010/Germany-Christens-First-New-Frigate-ClassI find the F125 a bit puzzling because it's a large vessel (a "frigate" weighing in at 7,100 tons) with long endurance, but is just about entirely oriented towards small wars. Two RAM mounts for self-defense against air targets, minimal ASW capability (sonar and two NH-90 helos), and only 8 standoff missiles (Harpoon for now and later RBS-15 MK4). What it does mount is a 5-inch gun with capability for long-range guided rounds and a lot of small-caliber guns (2 27mm autocannons and 7 12.7mm MGs), plus water cannons and other "non-provocation defenses." Sort of reads like a really big LCS.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 14, 2013 11:37:57 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 14, 2013 14:01:28 GMT -6
Hi Steel: Based on the information that I have provided and others, all that was done was to reduce crew size, increase mission duration times and increase at sea times. It might be, that this ship was designed to service not only the immediate area such as the Baltic, North Sea, northern Norway coast and eastern Atlantic but also have the capability to provide assistance in the Med and the Indian Ocean. I don't really see much changed from the F124 class except those I identified. It's more evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
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Post by steel selachian on Dec 14, 2013 14:09:59 GMT -6
I think the size was driven more by the deployment length. The proposal is for the ships to accumulate up to 5,000 hours of sea time per year, with the idea of having the ship on deployment for two years at a stretch (supposedly by swapping crews on-site). That means a larger ship that carries lots of supplies and spare parts. I would say fuel as well, but her cruising range isn't any better than the earlier F124 frigates and slightly less than Spain's F100 frigate; both are smaller ships but by the look of it the F125's propulsion system is designed for long periods of moseying about one area.
As far as the LCS comparison, I made that in terms of the limited weapons fit and asymmetric-warfare focus. It's very much tailored to pirate-hunting and similar low-threat assignments. I would not take this thing up against an opponent that has even basic AShMs or strike aircraft unless it was operating in conjunction with capable AAW escorts. Even in that case, it doesn't bring much to the table against any kind of actual military opposition. I wouldn't list speed as a defining characteristic of an LCS-type ship. The speed requirements for LCS are largely a relic of the Navy's insistence that they ride shotgun with CSGs; this is not a concern for the German Navy.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 14, 2013 15:30:12 GMT -6
The weapons on this class of ship seem to be more aimed at the small boats and other asymmetric threats. It has anti-ship missiles and surface to air missiles for aircraft and helicopters. This would indicate enclosed shallow seas and littorals as the quotes indicate. But I am wondering about their defense against small submarines and diesel boats which will be present in their operational environment.
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Post by steel selachian on Dec 14, 2013 16:15:21 GMT -6
The surface-to-air loadout is pretty anemic; 2 21-round RAM launchers. That's a fairly good close-in defense, but these days frigate-size ships are expected to at least have something in the ESSM/SA-N-9 class of SAMs for self-defense. A close-in system like RAM or CIWS is your last option; if that's firing you're advised to get off the deck, get behind something solid, and pipe "Sweepers, man your brooms." I would not take this thing up against a tinpot navy with a good stock of missile-armed FACs or shore-launched AShMs, not unless one of the F124s or a comparable NATO warship with a decent air defense capability was riding shotgun.
Basically put, this class isn't suited to operations in a theater with air, missile, or submarine threats. Overall this looks like something tailor-made for operations off the Horn of Africa, which bothers me. This is very much a niche specialty design.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 14, 2013 16:57:34 GMT -6
The surface-to-air loadout is pretty anemic; 2 21-round RAM launchers. That's a fairly good close-in defense, but these days frigate-size ships are expected to at least have something in the ESSM/SA-N-9 class of SAMs for self-defense. A close-in system like RAM or CIWS is your last option; if that's firing you're advised to get off the deck, get behind something solid, and pipe "Sweepers, man your brooms." I would not take this thing up against a tinpot navy with a good stock of missile-armed FACs or shore-launched AShMs, not unless one of the F124s or a comparable NATO warship with a decent air defense capability was riding shotgun. Basically put, this class isn't suited to operations in a theater with air, missile, or submarine threats. Overall this looks like something tailor-made for operations off the Horn of Africa, which bothers me. This is very much a niche specialty design. I am going to hold judgment on the weaponry because many times you don't fully outfit the weaponry until all the hulls are built and deployed then you can judge what needs to be upgraded. I think that for anti-piracy, counterterrorism operations, this ship is fully capable. Additional missions and operations might be forthcoming over the years and that will adjust everything. We are working with brochure knowledge and I feel we might be missing something.
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