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Post by anthropoid on Jan 8, 2020 14:44:19 GMT -6
Have a war with Japan and took the opportunity to build a few: ~3400t, 21k top speed, about 6 each of 6",4" and 3" if memory serves. About 4 (maybe 6 torpedo launchers). Extreme range, reliable motors, colonial service. Maybe overkill, but it was still quite cheap to build. My intent with the design is to be a bit of a jack of all trades, but especially to do the number on subs and enemy merchants. I'm aware of some of the ways these types of vessels were used in the era; basically disguised merchants which would prowl shipping lanes or lurk around ports where subs tended to strike and then spring them a nasty surprise . . . in theory.
However, what is the best in-game way to use them? Distribute one or two each to each zone where one has a possession and set them to Active Fleet? Or to Trade Protection? Or to Raider?
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Post by dyermaker on Jan 8, 2020 15:01:02 GMT -6
This is just my opinion, and I'm sure others will correct me if they disagree, but any time I've used them I've deployed them to trade protection or raiding only. I do *not* want them showing up in fleet battles, which is exactly what active fleet will get you... I've seen the AI suffer from this.... AMC's have basically *no* chance against real warships.
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Post by akosjaccik on Jan 8, 2020 15:17:31 GMT -6
Well, their most prominent gimmick is that they are disarmed after the war, and their temporary nature is offset by their quick build times. For this reason and for me, they are rather a stop-gap solution and isn't really about 'wanting to build' but rather 'having to build'. For this reason, they are generally considered to be used as raiders or to fill up the TP quota asap. Colonial service is usually a waste of taxpayer dollars on those ships, because either you already have the necessary tonnage at your disposal, in which case their capability is redundant; or not, in which case you should seek more long-term solutions as soon as viable. Extreme range is again a thing that currently does seem to cost more than it brings to the table, but long-range is not necessarily a bad idea for a raider, per se. Expecting them the same(ish) performance as proper cruisers is either wishful thinking, or horribly cost-inefficient, so AF is usually a no-no; TP is okay, but their ASW capability might not be stellar. I sometimes employ them as surface raiders mostly early game (given that the enemy isn't blockaded), in this case cost is The Word, and go for quantity rather than quality. You might want to saturate the waters with anything that floats and is capable of punching a hole on a merchant ship rather than pay for just a pair of expensive half-baked temporary cruisers.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 8, 2020 16:17:39 GMT -6
My operational plan is to use older cruisers, armored or light, that have been updated and mothballed. I use these in my guerre de course or trade warfare. I ensure that they are oil powered and increase their speed. I remove some of the guns because there targets are not battleships or warships, but commercial transports. I use these along with many submarines. I've found this operational plan to be very effective especially for Japan. I don't waste money on AMC's.
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Post by Adseria on Jan 8, 2020 16:22:21 GMT -6
I have a simple solution: I never use them.
Sure, they're cheap, but they're cheap because they're terrible. The only thing I think they would be useful for would be to give them a butt-ton of torpedoes, put them on raiding and hope you get that event where they surprise an enemy cruiser at close range. For anything else, their role can be filled much more effectively by other ships:
Raiding: This can be done just as effectively (and cheaply) by submarines, except subs don't get deleted at the end of the war. Even low-reliability early subs are much better, purely because they don't get deleted. I regularly see my first batch of coastal subs from the early 1910s fighting in wars in the '30s and '40s, something an AMC will never achieve.
Trade Protection: Small (200-300t) corvettes can be converted from trawlers and the like in the same time as an AMC, and can be fitted with all the ASW tech, which is all a trade protection ship really needs.
Colonial Service: Use regular light/protected cruisers. They can still be fitted for colonial service, and they can defend themselves against enemy cruisers and destroyers if need be, unlike an AMC.
Fleet combat: hahahahahahahahahaha.
If you do choose to use them, I'd probably say "use them as raiders," because that's what they're least useless at (in my admittedly limited experience).
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Post by anthropoid on Jan 8, 2020 16:22:35 GMT -6
That bit about being disarmed after the war is a real blind-sider. Dang. Guess I'll scrap these three or four more I already put in the queue!
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Post by Adseria on Jan 8, 2020 16:23:58 GMT -6
That bit about being disarmed after the war is a real blind-sider. Dang. Guess I'll scrap these three or four more I already put in the queue! You know, most of what people are saying here can be found in the manual.
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Post by aeson on Jan 8, 2020 16:25:06 GMT -6
I personally only use AMCs for raiding unless I'm quite short on ships suited for TP duties; especially later in the game, I usually have plenty of old, small destroyers that I can use as convoy ASW escorts and can probably spare some cruisers if enemy surface raiders are causing me concern.
I will comment that AMCs can theoretically be used to (relatively) rapidly expand your light carrier force in wartime since they get you a hull for conversion with a fair amount of spare tonnage in four months, but I'm a bit dubious of the value of such conversions due to the limited speed (21 knots plus anything you're willing and able to give them with an engine rebuild in the current version of the game) and protection (no armor and at best torpedo bulges) that you could give to them.
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Post by anthropoid on Jan 8, 2020 17:46:24 GMT -6
That bit about being disarmed after the war is a real blind-sider. Dang. Guess I'll scrap these three or four more I already put in the queue! You know, most of what people are saying here can be found in the manual. In searching on the string "merchant" there are two instances in the SAI manual and 12 in the RTW manual. #10 says "AMCs cannot be built in peacetime and will be sold off after a war." I guess I missed that sentence. Shame really that the game doesn't model the merchant marine. Maybe for a DLC or RTW3 . . .
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Post by rodentnavy on Jan 8, 2020 18:36:14 GMT -6
The only use I have for them is as early game minelayers but once your DDs and CLs can do that role that is likely it for them.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jan 9, 2020 3:55:41 GMT -6
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Post by aetreus on Jan 10, 2020 20:44:26 GMT -6
I use AMC's as the "mass" portion of my raiding fleet. I have big, fast cruisers and battlecruisers which can win cruiser fights reliably, a fleet for fighting the enemy where they send considerable forces, and hordes of AMC's to kill all their shipping. Uncontested AMC's are way cheaper than CL for killing the same number of transports, the main concern is that enemy cruisers will wreck them while CL can in theory run away(in practice I tend to find my CL outsped by more modern ships and the expense of keeping them fast is painful).
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Post by director on Jan 10, 2020 21:49:25 GMT -6
I have used masses of AMCs to break an opponent and drive them to peace. Takes about 20, so all other construction has to stop while you ramp them up. I'd lose on average 2 or 3 a month, so production had to continue to offset losses. Still, it got me out of a war with Great Britain that I could not win with my battle-fleet, so there is that.
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Post by stevethecat on Jan 11, 2020 6:00:01 GMT -6
AMCs are an excellent way of ending wars. Oh you have just built 5? Sounds like a good time to declare peace.
/AI troll face.
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Post by anthropoid on Jan 11, 2020 10:35:19 GMT -6
I use AMC's as the "mass" portion of my raiding fleet. I have big, fast cruisers and battlecruisers which can win cruiser fights reliably, a fleet for fighting the enemy where they send considerable forces, and hordes of AMC's to kill all their shipping. Uncontested AMC's are way cheaper than CL for killing the same number of transports, the main concern is that enemy cruisers will wreck them while CL can in theory run away(in practice I tend to find my CL outsped by more modern ships and the expense of keeping them fast is painful). Based on my very limited observations playing Germany with historical budget up through about 1920 this makes sense.
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