euchrejack
Full Member
Don't feed the Trolls. They just get bigger and more numerous.
Posts: 139
|
Post by euchrejack on Mar 30, 2020 12:09:33 GMT -6
I think the discussion of AoN advantages is forgetting that one advantage of unarmored areas is that AP shells pass through them rather than explode. A recent discussion about "The Destroyer that just wouldn't die" illustrates how this works in game (destroyers being completely unarmored) nws-online.proboards.com/thread/4657/destroyer-die
|
|
|
Post by wknehring on Mar 31, 2020 1:22:32 GMT -6
From my experience ingame, it is like in real history.
At the beginning of the design process of a ship you think about its coming operation area. For example- with Germany 1920 (Versailles and treaty running), you will fight 90% of your battles in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea with about 70% shitty weather and so engagements at shorter ranges, down to more knife fights than you want. Here the turtleback armour (sloped deck) is my first choice, because it has additional protection against flat fire at the cost of an unprotected free board. In calm seas, where the distances are huge, for example around Africa or the Pacific I use AoN-armour because I often try to hold my distance and deal plunging fire. The returning plunging fire does less damage to your free board area. With the German Kaiserreich, starting in 1900, my colonial fleet exists of "Semi-AoN".
But there is a major issue with AoN without BE and DE armour- SAP or HE armour. Hits in (or in case of bombs, near) the extended areas cause floddings, slow down your line and you are prone to further air and torpedo attacks. I lost ships because of a **** load of small/medium caliber hits (or a few larger hits) in the BE area with early AoN and TPS 2 or lower. And it is frustrating when you build a squadron of fast battleships, you think they can deal with everything and a scout force of 8" CA drops their speed from 28 knots to 23, because the leading pair received a few hits in the unprotected bow section and later on you miss these few knots to hunt down the enemy CV-Force.
Because this, I tend to build my capital ships with 2" BE and 1" DE. Than they become save against HE, low caliber SAP and near hits/splinters, in addition to the first point (AoN or TB).
In case you need any free ton you can get, than lower your belt protection- 11-13" is far enough against the most incoming shells, especially if you use angled belts (but than you better go all-in with your TPS). In RTW1 for example I calculated my immunity zone handish by adding the half of your protected deck to your belt armour and it worked well. And I guess in RTW2 this wasn´t changed in the game routines.
During a game around patch 1.10-1.15 I built a BB around 1940-1945 that could deal with anything- AoN 20" inclined belt, 8" deck, box protection, TPS 4, BE 2", DE 1,5", 3 quadruple 17"Qu1, 24 5"Qu1 autoloading DPs, some 3" DPs and ~40-50 medium AA and a load of small AA- with around 150 spare tons against flooding; 24 knots, around 60-65k tons in total- they could take punishment from hell! One received 8 DD torpedos (not these air droped toys) and several 1400lbs bomb hits and during a short duel with eney BBs the sumperimposed turrets was knocked out- it made it back to Emden with 12 knots. I guess now with unit propulsion it could go faster.
I don´t know how far you are in detail about historical armour schemes, but it could help to look after them and think about incoming shells and how they can defeat the armour. It helps to think about shells with 0°/30°/45°/60° angle of fall. You better look after Iowa-class (best AoN example) and Scharnhorst-class (best turtleback example, because near to nothing armoured free board) and than compare them. Open the schemes in paint and draw red lines into them with the above mentioned angle of falls. Set 60° to long range fire, 45° to medium range fire and 30° with short range fire. Replace the historic numbers with your ingame numbers and you have a quiet detailed model.
|
|
|
Post by janxol on Mar 31, 2020 2:12:13 GMT -6
I usually stick to AoN as soon as I unlock it. It fits my doctrine of keeping the big guns at range much better. One thing I will say is that giving 2" BE protection onto an AoN ship is counterproductive for multiple reasons: 1. You lose ALL AoN benefits (the ship is no longer considered AoN). 2. It will help the enemy shells detonate rather than pass through with minimal damage 3. It will not stop any shells, except splinters.
Keeping at range is the way to deal with low caliber shells, not adding wierd patches of armor back onto the design. If your AoN BC is in melee range with 8" CAs something went wrong. If that's the situation your ships end up with because of weather/tactics turtleback is the way to go.
|
|
|
Post by wknehring on Mar 31, 2020 4:58:55 GMT -6
I usually stick to AoN as soon as I unlock it. It fits my doctrine of keeping the big guns at range much better. One thing I will say is that giving 2" BE protection onto an AoN ship is counterproductive for multiple reasons: 1. You lose ALL AoN benefits (the ship is no longer considered AoN). 2. It will help the enemy shells detonate rather than pass through with minimal damage 3. It will not stop any shells, except splinters.
Keeping at range is the way to deal with low caliber shells, not adding wierd patches of armor back onto the design. If your AoN BC is in melee range with 8" CAs something went wrong. If that's the situation your ships end up with because of weather/tactics turtleback is the way to go.
It is my maingoal too to keep my long range rifles somewhere in the back and giving heavy support- or better using the estimated immunity zone once I know which enemy class I am with. In good weather conditions at daytime that´s all OK and a "pure AoN" should fit better. As I mentioned before- in African or Pacific waters, maybe the Carribean and Mediterranian, I am fully with you. In Northern Europe, the Northern and Northeast Pacific and North American Eastcoast, it is 50-50 or even worse. In the worse case, I tend to use Turtlebacks instead of AoN. And in bad weather or night (without proper radar), even DDs come into gunrange and sometimes pack a nasty punch (4x1 6" or 3-4x 2 5"). So CAs coming into gunrange is no mistake, it depends on the circumstances. And the time without radar, I try to keep distance and use my screening forces to spot the area between the lines and only come into range, if it is worth the risk.
With the weird 2" "armour patch" you can deal with all splinters and 2-5" HE and SAP shells, not with AP. But most of the light units shot HE or maybe SAP against capital ships (researches in the post battle logs confirm that). And for me this is reason enough to build my capital ships with this addition, although it might be a bit outdated. And the "caliber treshold" where shells arm or not with 2" armour is 15-16" guns, depending what range they shot and what quality they have (I researched a lot of encounters and the heavier the shell and shorter the range, the saver is your armour). In addition I have to say, I uncommonly have pass through hits by medium caliber´s AP. They arm with armour or without nearly the same way- a thing why my doctrine for small and medium calibers provide for SAP (once invented) at all ranges against capital ships, although 10" AP could penetrate some AI BC-designs- the resulting waterincome and slowing down the enemy, fits better in my opinion.
To make it a bit shorter^^:
In calm seas and daytime, where you dictate the rules of engagement, your point is definately right. In shitty weather and 16h night in the winter, without radar, armour is the best protection you have, if you can´t keep range. This is why I said, you have to think about your design and what it should be capable of.
Well, there could be one exception- the US. You have enough funds to spam capital ships, so keep them cheap but punchy should be the better way. If you lose one or two- build new ones.
|
|
|
Post by janxol on Mar 31, 2020 9:17:16 GMT -6
In calm seas and daytime, where you dictate the rules of engagement, your point is definately right. In shitty weather and 16h night in the winter, without radar, armour is the best protection you have, if you can´t keep range. This is why I said, you have to think about your design and what it should be capable of.
That is absolutely true. What I do find though is that you should go either for AoN or turtleback rather than something in the middle. Whatever armor you add to BE and DE automatically disables the AoN benefit on that ship. So what you end up with is a ship that is neither AoN nor turtleback and has the flaws of both - no sloped deck to increase protection and no flotation bonus from AoN. That's why "wierd patches of armor" aren't desirable in most cases.
|
|
|
Post by director on Apr 3, 2020 10:01:21 GMT -6
I tend to avoid engagements in conditions of low visibility. My pre-aviation fleets are usually built around BBs with AoN protection and firepower, CLs that have firepower, and DDs with firepower and torpedoes. The common element, of course, is gun power.
"Some may worship the torpedo, Or the mine and submarine-O, But a storm of shells is neat-o And quite good enough for me!
Gimme that old time firepower, Gimme that old time firepower, Gimme that old time firepower, And Davy Jones' is where you'll be!"
|
|