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Post by Emma on Feb 20, 2020 19:21:11 GMT -6
I never realized that the game currently does not have the frigate type of ships implemented. Though its usefulness and function might be questioned, historically it did exist. The term "frigate" was readopted during the Second World War by the British Royal Navy to describe an anti-submarine escort vessel that was larger than a corvette, while smaller than a destroyer. I personal would love to see the addition of frigates into the game, I believe it would be an interesting supplementation. I'd think that the developers thought of the concept as well and kept frigates out of the game for a reason. Is there a specific reason behind this? Would adding frigates make the game worse?
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Post by seawolf on Feb 20, 2020 20:04:27 GMT -6
They fall under KE designation so there's no need for an additional type
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Post by pirateradar on Feb 20, 2020 23:36:18 GMT -6
You can build KEs up to... I'm not actually sure what the size limit is. Thousands of tons, at least. In RtW2 the KE hull classification covers many ships, including those that in real life were called corvettes, destroyer escorts, frigates, and avisos.
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Post by wlbjork on Feb 20, 2020 23:41:41 GMT -6
I thought there was a dearth of terms originally, then realised small ships didn't really need the number of designations that were used. Sloops, Corvettes, Frigates, Minesweepers - all fall under the KE designation in game. Edit: Though Sloops are different to Corvettes and Frigates, at least in the scope of the game's timeframe. Corvettes were small mercantile hulls used for combat work, whereas Frigates were larger (twin screw) designs when the term was reintroduced - but both would be more vulnerable to battle damage. Sloops on the other hand were built to warship standards and thus more resilient. So should Sloops be a specialist form of Destroyer? Max speed 20kn, no torpedoes - but would then allow the Black Swans to be replicated with their 3*2 4" guns. Link: www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/difference-between-sloop-frigate-corvette-t38241.html
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Post by zardoz on Feb 21, 2020 9:08:20 GMT -6
It's in the game!
As corvettes. You can design the KEs for different purposes and a 900 t KE with all the ASW things should be a nice frigate. What I would like would be more differences with regard to tasks, i. e. a convoy defence slot, a minesweeping slot, a patrol slot etc.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 21, 2020 11:52:54 GMT -6
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_frigates_of_World_War_IIThe above is a list of WW2 Frigates. If you examine that list, the US called them destroyer escort, the British and French called them frigates. What's in a name? All were about 1200-1400 tons. Similar weaponry including quick firing guns like 5 inch, 4 inch. and 3 inch. AAA weapons like 40 and 20 mm. Along with ASW technology including hedgehogs, depth charges and the electronics for detection at a later date. I have enclosed a design, circa 1923 Japan, for a ship based on the list above. Later in the game with more ASW research, that could be added but it does have depth charges. Essentially, this is a frigate or destroyer escort. you could add more AA guns and secondary weapons.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Feb 21, 2020 17:46:47 GMT -6
One thing I have noted in rtw2 is that there is frankly little motivation for putting LAA and MAA on light ships. Why should I mount point-defense weapons on my escorts when what I care about is what they can throw at the CVs we are protecting? I have pretty much only put LAA and MAA on CLs and smaller when I have literally found nothing else I could do with that tonnage.
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euchrejack
Full Member
Don't feed the Trolls. They just get bigger and more numerous.
Posts: 139
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Post by euchrejack on Feb 21, 2020 22:11:56 GMT -6
Well, there has been some reports of aircraft targeting the first ship they encounter, rather than the biggest ship of the fleet. Destroyers on screen duty are more likely to be in front of the fleet. If they can fight off more aircraft, then less aircraft are going after the Carrier(s).
There is a greater argument in favor of AA guns on Corvettes, as their designs are deployed as independent forces in most fleet battles near the player ports. If they can kill off a couple of aircraft and survive longer, then maybe the player can have a better idea of where they are coming.
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Post by 13th Fleet on Feb 21, 2020 22:18:12 GMT -6
They are perfectly adequately represented by either KEs or slow DDs depending on whether they are equipped with torpedoes. There are arguments to be made either way about whether you should bother putting torpedoes on this sort of slow escort. On one hand, they take tonnage that could be used for other things. On the other hand, torpedoes mean the ship is a threat to even battleships.
I've sunk capital ships because they stumbled over one of the AI-controlled patrols in the middle of the night during a raid thanks to those torpedoes.
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Post by dorn on Feb 21, 2020 23:22:10 GMT -6
One thing I have noted in rtw2 is that there is frankly little motivation for putting LAA and MAA on light ships. Why should I mount point-defense weapons on my escorts when what I care about is what they can throw at the CVs we are protecting? I have pretty much only put LAA and MAA on CLs and smaller when I have literally found nothing else I could do with that tonnage. The second thing is that to have ASW rating, we builds a lot of 600 tons in peace time or 200 tons in case of war. Such ship would be not much useful for ASW except coasts. May be decrease ASW effectivity of such ships vs. submarines except coastal ones. In RTW it seems that most effectiveness ASW ships are smallest ones but in history corvettes and destroyers escort in WW2 was not such small at all.
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Post by griffin01 on Feb 22, 2020 0:25:12 GMT -6
Likewise, it might be a good idea to improve the survivability of KEs versus submarines - I have found that they are dropping like flies from gun duels, no matter how you build them, heavily disincentivizing their usage over ASW destroyers.
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Post by wlbjork on Feb 22, 2020 2:27:17 GMT -6
What size and how are your KEs armed, griffin?
I find my heavy KEs, 4*5" and 4*4" tend to blitz through gun duels.
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Post by aeson on Feb 22, 2020 3:39:38 GMT -6
The second thing is that to have ASW rating, we builds a lot of 600 tons in peace time Personally, I rarely build dedicated ASW escorts in peace time, for much the same reason as I rarely build dedicated colonial ships: I usually have a reasonable number of older ships that can adequately cover second- or third-line duties. Repurposed old ships might not be as effective - or at least not as cost-effective over the long term - in their new roles as new construction would be, but they're generally more immediately available and using them instead of new construction allows me to spend my construction budget on ships to fill the first-line roles that the old ships can't adequately cover.
Destroyers and corvettes might be cheap to build, but even relatively minimalistic 600t ASW destroyers and corvettes aren't that much cheaper to maintain in absolute terms than repurposed thousand-ton fast fleet destroyers, and if it takes the best part of a decade just for the difference in upkeep to recoup the construction costs of the new ship even without the ASW force being kept in a reduced state of readiness in peacetime then how much are you really gaining? If you need the additional ASW ships then fair enough, but if you already have fifty-odd old fleet destroyers that you can repurpose as ASW ships over the 1910s and 1920s on top of the dozen or so corvettes you'd have needed to cover TP requirements in the early stages of the game before submarines were really a concern then you probably don't really need additional ASW ships that badly.
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Post by dorn on Feb 22, 2020 6:11:27 GMT -6
The second thing is that to have ASW rating, we builds a lot of 600 tons in peace time Personally, I rarely build dedicated ASW escorts in peace time, for much the same reason as I rarely build dedicated colonial ships: I usually have a reasonable number of older ships that can adequately cover second- or third-line duties. Repurposed old ships might not be as effective - or at least not as cost-effective over the long term - in their new roles as new construction would be, but they're generally more immediately available and using them instead of new construction allows me to spend my construction budget on ships to fill the first-line roles that the old ships can't adequately cover.
Destroyers and corvettes might be cheap to build, but even relatively minimalistic 600t ASW destroyers and corvettes aren't that much cheaper to maintain in absolute terms than repurposed thousand-ton fast fleet destroyers, and if it takes the best part of a decade just for the difference in upkeep to recoup the construction costs of the new ship even without the ASW force being kept in a reduced state of readiness in peacetime then how much are you really gaining? If you need the additional ASW ships then fair enough, but if you already have fifty-odd old fleet destroyers that you can repurpose as ASW ships over the 1910s and 1920s on top of the dozen or so corvettes you'd have needed to cover TP requirements in the early stages of the game before submarines were really a concern then you probably don't really need additional ASW ships that badly.
I agree with your that usually the easist solution is to use some old destroyers. However during wars destroyers are usually expandable and having some losses means less is remaining for future ASW work. Sometimes AI builds a lot of submarines that having large number of ASW vessels is mandatory and in such cases new construction are needed. I have no statitics how many ships I use usually as dedicated ASW vessels or refitted old destroyers. There is other options but I think for new construction about 600 tons vessel is one of best ASW vessels.
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Post by sagaren on Feb 22, 2020 9:27:26 GMT -6
Another thing to consider is that at least WWII American "frigates" were really just small destroyers, slower and less well armed than full sized fleet destroyers. This would be easily done as is by building smaller tonnage destroyers with the system already in place but with more modern technology.
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