Good Guides for Tactical Combat?

[Kriegsspieler]

I've been playing RTW2 on and off for several months, and while I've gotten reasonably competent at the strategic fleet-building part of the game, I find that my tactical performance in battles still leaves a lot to be desired. In particular, I seem not to have the hang of using DD's. In many instances, I see enemy AI DDs rushing in like mad to get close to my larger ships, fire off a couple of torpedoes and rush away again with only moderate damage, while my poor CA is left limping along, trying to plug that big hole in the hull. But when I try the same thing myself, my little DD column gets shredded to bits without firing off a single torp. I would say the AI is "cheating" except that I know better than that.

So that prompts me to ask where I can get a good guide to tactical combat. You veterans of the first RTW, not to mention SAI, must know something to suggest.

Thanks

[oldpop2000]

Feb 22, 2020 9:37:45 GMT -6 Kriegsspieler said:

I've been playing RTW2 on and off for several months, and while I've gotten reasonably competent at the strategic fleet-building part of the game, I find that my tactical performance in battles still leaves a lot to be desired. In particular, I seem not to have the hang of using DD's. In many instances, I see enemy AI DDs rushing in like mad to get close to my larger ships, fire off a couple of torpedoes and rush away again with only moderate damage, while my poor CA is left limping along, trying to plug that big hole in the hull. But when I try the same thing myself, my little DD column gets shredded to bits without firing off a single torp. I would say the AI is "cheating" except that I know better than that.

So that prompts me to ask where I can get a good guide to tactical combat. You veterans of the first RTW, not to mention SAI, must know something to suggest.

Thanks

As you have already determined, destroyers or tin cans as we call them, can have many uses. They are scouts with a destroyer leader usually a light cruiser. They can attack convoys, get in close and fire torpedoes. Eventually they will be ASW platforms. They can provide AAA when that research point is reached and they can provide a way of forcing an enemy fleet away while your fleet retreats or maneuvers. I use them like this all the time. I use them for patrolling. 

You essentially have to examine each type of scenario and see where the destroyers perform the best. Initially, 1900 or so, the torpedoes are not that adequate with speed etc. to really use them in flotilla attack on a battle fleet. But eventually as technology improves, you  will get better and larger boats, faster, better armed and with vast improvements in electronics like ASW and radar. They eventually can be picket ships posted many miles from the battle fleet like the old cavalry of the Civil War days. However, this function is reduced with air cover and scouting from carriers and land based aircraft. Again, you have to examine the time progression and progression of battle tactics etc. 

[director]

Destroyers aren't as useful offensively early on as they will be later. I build my DDs gun-heavy (torpedo-boat 'destroyers' with no more than 2-3 torpedo tubes) up until around the 900-ton mark and the adoption of twin or triple torpedo tubes.

Here are a couple of simple tips for DDs in a surface action:

1) DDs are the cavalry of the seas. Use them when desperate (to stop an oncoming enemy battlefleet), to harass (to break up and slow an enemy attack) or to deliver the killing blow to a wounded enemy.
They ARE NOT the primary element of battle and you will lose a lot of them if you misuse them.

2) Ships fire torpedoes at an enemy that is BEHIND the midpoint of their side, almost NEVER ahead. This is why the AI manuevers so relentlessly to be in your front quarter.
Early on ships can only fire torpedoes at slower speeds, not at a DD's top speed.

3) The Toreador: the AI is EXTREMELY sensitive to torpedo attacks, real or fake, and whether or not you have any torpedoes left. Try this manuever: against an oncoming enemy line, alter course slightly away (enough, if you can, to put them on your stern quarter and ideally so that only his forward guns can fire). Raise the Flotilla Attack flag and set DD flotillas to Independent. Wait for your DDs to move out and for the enemy to flinch... if he doesn't, and if it is worth the loss of DDs (IE you are heavily outnumbered and must escape) then let them go in. If he does flinch away, lower the Flotilla Attack flag and put your DDs back on other tasks (call them in manually if you must). The enemy will be disorganized and either retreat or come in again - at which point, rinse and repeat until he is damaged and disorganized.

Use DDs to distract them, battleships to smash them and then DDs to sink the wounded.

4) I build my DDs with heavy gun-power, and I build a LOT of them, for one reason: I WANT the enemy to commit his DDs so that I can smash them. Killing battleships is the end objective, but sweeping away the defending pawns (while not losing your own) is a fine way to set up the killing blow. Reduce his escorts and you reduce his ability to put his battle-line to sea, and if he does come out you can swamp him with waves of torpedoes. DD superiority is a powerful force-multiplier, in the present and in the future, so wreck and kill his DDs early, often and repeatedly.

[rimbecano]

Feb 22, 2020 11:25:24 GMT -6 director said:

Early on ships can only fire torpedoes at slower speeds, not at a DD's top speed.

This isn't an early/late thing, it's a submerged/deck mounted thing. DDs can have deck mounted tubes from the beginning of the game, so it's never a factor for them. The early/late thing is that larger ships can only use deck mounts later in the game.

[zardoz]

DDs, even in th early game, are very useful to break up the enemies battle line and to isolate target concentrating on to destroy. Even if you are outnumbered your little friends can keep the enemy on distance and save you.

[Kriegsspieler]

Heh - actually, I was looking for a more general guide to handling naval battles, if there is one.

But as long as we're talking about DD's, I mostly do not use them in a primary attacking role, but just for the kinds of things that various people above have suggested -- screening and scouting, beating up on wounded ships, etc. However, when an individual ship has been left exposed by the AI, I do try to dash in and get a torpedo into it. Yet as I said at the top of the thread, this maneuver fails far more often than it succeeds. with my DDs having been shot up badly and the main target unscarred. On the other hand, when the AI does a similar ploy, it succeeds more often. So obviously it IS possible -- just not for me!

[wlbjork]

Really, for naval battles it's about being cautious until you're certain what you're facing. Commit too soon and you may find yourself over-matched.

Generally, good timing and careful manoeuvring will allow you to win against even more powerful opponents. Once the enemy is sighted, run in turn-based mode (press space to advance) to enable the fine control needed to destroy or evade as required.

[oldpop2000]

Feb 22, 2020 13:40:40 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

Really, for naval battles it's about being cautious until you're certain what you're facing. Commit too soon and you may find yourself over-matched.

Generally, good timing and careful maneuvering will allow you to win against even more powerful opponents. Once the enemy is sighted, run in turn-based mode (press space to advance) to enable the fine control needed to destroy or evade as required.

Precisely, that is how I have always played.  Timing is everything and so is scouting with verification of you opponent and his strength. I am reminded of the old saying "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day". When you reach the level of airbases, bombers etc. Then you can turn away, run towards a port with airfields and let the bombers do the dirty work. It works for me all the time.

[director]

rimbecano - I stand corrected... but I have had to slow my DDs down to get them to fire torps, even at a slow or stationary target. Could be other factors I suppose.


Most of naval combat is about getting the enemy to fight the way that you want him to - a way that emphasizes your strengths and/or his weaknesses.
I have often regretted steaming boldly into combat (usually to get mousetrapped by his BCs) and rarely regretted taking the time to set up the engagement the way that I want it.

[director]

Kriegsspieler - I would recommend a study of battles rather than look for a guide to tactics. My tactics change markedly depending on weather and visibility, how critical it is to bring the enemy to battle and what I am risking. Tsushima, Heligoland, Dogger Bank, Jutland and all of the tactical studies of the 'tween-wars period make for good reading.

But, in a very general way, naval combat is not so very different from land combat (save that the regiments move sideways instead of front-or-back). The capital ships are the infantry, the BCs are the dragoons and the CL-DD groups are the cavalry. It is always desirable to disorder the enemy, to draw him forward into the desired range and hold him there, to wreck his formations with DD feints and finish him off with torpedo 'lances'. Even if retreating, one can turn and smash the pursuer's nose, or send back a shoal of torpedoes to discourage pursuit. NOTE: the AI is smart enough to do that to you, so beware.

One must be patient, ready to seize the moment if it comes and disengage if it does not. Always try to look ahead - why did the enemy leave that detached force? What will I find if I pursue it?

"Never interfere with the enemy while he is in the process of making a mistake."

And my favorite self-quote, "When you have won... STOP." Don't keep pressing and risking; that's where the losses start mounting up.

[garrisonchisholm]

One thing I always like to emphasize is that the player has a potential advantage that 99.9% of the time the AI never uses. The "steady course & speed" gunnery bonus is one that the player can use to their advantage, because the AI has to maneuver at all costs or those clever humans will abuse it. So, the AI almost never stays on the same course and speed for more than a volley or two when in contact.

This 'edge' has lead me to favor designs with more main gun barrels, to double-up on the gunnery advantage I am trying to seize. Additionally, be aware of the wind direction, and if you can manage your battle-entry course an speed to your advantage the wind will blowing smoke clear of your range finders and into the sights of your opponent.

As for using Torpedoes, I would recommend not counting on them but rather accepting them as a delightful bonus when they land for you. I have a personal theory that DDs are more aggressive when they carry more tubes, but this theory has never survived confrontation with facts.

[garrisonchisholm]

Feb 22, 2020 19:34:57 GMT -6 director said:

And my favorite self-quote, "When you have won... STOP." Don't keep pressing and risking; that's where the losses start mounting up.

I cannot agree with this enough.  After you toss away your 20th decisive victory it gets Really old.

[rockmedic109]

Stopping when ahead is the best tactics advice.

If you have big, expensive torpedo magnets {Dreadnoughts} flee once it is dark. Otherwise you'll already be in torpedo range the moment you spot that enemy ship which always turns into a flock of DDs testing the new precision guided torpedoes.

[oldpop2000]

I don't believe that fleet battles are decisive in any way. They haven't been throughout history and in this game I have not found them to be in that realm. I avoid them, as they are attritional. Blockades are costly to each side, but can be decisive. Naval warfare is attritional. The best strategy I have adopted is to avoid major fleet battles and just pick away at my enemy, and go after his merchant ships in a trade war. Where your conflict occurs in geographic terms is vital. You can examine each nation and the geographic region that conflict will be fought in and prepare for them with you fleet construction and research. Know your enemy, study his requirements carefully.

The only naval battles in all of history that could be considered as decisive were: Salamis, Lepanto, Yamen, Quiberon Bay, and the Spanish Armada. We could add Midway, but the war lasted for another four years. So, was it really decisive or did it just stop Japanese offensive action?

These are my thoughts, but I don't think they are important. But here they are.

[wlbjork]

Attrition does make it easier to achieve a blockade though, which is even more effective than sinking merchantmen in causing capitulation.