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Post by frostycouch on Mar 24, 2020 10:15:00 GMT -6
Hi all,
Hope everyone is staying healthy and safe! I have recently dived into RTW2 and am greatly enjoying the game, but am struggling with a few aspects. I've read through the manual and have watched a handful of youtube tutorials (which have all been very helpful!), but am still challenged on a few questions.
Any help on the below questions would be super appreciated!
1. Force disposition at start of battles: I always review the estimated forces in area before engaging, but honestly they don't seem to translate very well into who actually shows up to the battle. I know this is somewhat intentional (per the manual), as Admirals did not always have their preferred ships on-hand. And yet 75% of the time, this factor solely determines who wins or who loses the battle - and it seems to be completely out of my control? Several times I seem to show up to the battle with 2 light cruisers when my enemy mustered forth 2 BBs. So...question is: Is there any way I can affect which ships show up to the battle? If not, what do you do when you find yourself hopelessly stacked against the enemy's forces - should I just try to run away or try to score any damage before sinking?
2. Tactical Tips: Do you have any tactical guidelines for the game? Here are the things that I try to do, but it's a pretty limited list: -Use fast destroyers to quickly get in torpedo range of the big ships -Use cruisers as spotting forces, and then against a BB decrease range as much as possible -Seek to fire my ships broadside against an enemy that is ideally not in broadside -Anything else?
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Post by director on Mar 24, 2020 10:45:31 GMT -6
You've got to know when to hold 'em Know when to fold 'em Know when to walk away And know when to run.
You cannot control which ships come out to play except by removing them from the sea zone or from active fleet status. Players have complained about this for years - we complained about it in RtW1 and now in 2. The designer is apparently determined it will never be fixed despite the fact that it tops every list of requests ever made. I'd even go for letting the game pick my forces if I could just select my own flagship and not have CLs or BCs stuck twenty miles out of any possible support range just so they can run into a vastly superior enemy and get crunched to no purpose... It is, I think, a great flaw - an un-necessary flaw - in an otherwise outstanding game.
My impulse is always to try to fight it out... but if I have 2 light cruisers and the enemy gets battlecruisers, I'm sunk to no purpose. Audacity has its place but prudence wins over time.
Things to bear in mind: 1) The purpose of the mission generator is to give you challenging situations, not fair ones. The force pool will usually be tilted against you, sometimes ludicrously so (be wary of convoy attack missions) 2) The AI will flinch away or at least operate more cautiously if you set the Torpedo Attack flag for even one turn 3) If the mission is in dark or low visibility, the torpedoes will be flying. Enemy ships will see you and fire on you and yours will not shoot back 4) If in doubt, live to fight another day - the war is won or lost over time (my last war with France ran almost 6 years)
Tactical tips:
1) I prefer to operate my battleline defensively, drawing the enemy forward through my fire zone until they are close enough for my destroyers to lunge. Unfortunately this doesn't happen often; usually the enemy will run and it becomes a question of how to chase. Launching your DDs across his fire zone can cost you a lot of DDs (their speed minus his speed = a long time exposed to his fire) so I don't do it unless the enemy is weakened or my situation is desperate (saving a BB is worth some DDs) 2) Chase prudently. The AI will launch torpedoes and score hits at the worst possible time for you, and may seek to lure you under the guns of heavier ships 3) The AI will do anything - absolutely flank-speed-pretzel-twisting-anything - to stay ahead of your beam. That's because from that position they can launch torpedoes at you (his torp speed plus your speed) and you should not (your torp speed minus his speed). If you think ahead you can sometimes use this against the AI... knowing where they will head is a help. Abandon any hope of ever torpedoing an enemy unless he is already wounded and slowed or unless he is advancing on you 4) In later years, pull your cruisers back quickly once an enemy is sighted. Otherwise 75 enemy battlecruisers will use them for extreme-range practice, score an unlikely number of hits and you aren't likely to sink enough after that to even the score 5) If you can score early on, relax. You are now playing with the equivalent of money in the bank and can even withdraw if you like. If he scores early on, beware the Gambler's Fallacy: your luck will not necessarily turn, now or ever. Do not bet more than you can afford to lose and don't lose more trying to get some of that back... I've lost more ships plunging in while blind angry and desperate to even the score than I have while staying calm 6) Do not rush in. Sometimes that means the enemy can get away but sometimes that means his battlecruiser trap closes on air, and I know which of those I prefer. I have had fleet actions take hours to mature, carefully manuevering to see if the enemy would try to close the range. I have spotted a convoy and withdrawn, circling around to come in after the escort sails for home. I have also seen an enemy wriggle out of my grasp and disappear into rain/dark/fog... it happens 7) The game WILL try to balance things out, by which I mean it will penalize YOU and not the AI. You WILL get 75 enemy battlecruisers against your 2 CLs, you WILL get your newest and best BB sunk by a mine or a submarine or your own stupid DD captains. Take a deep breath, (CTRL-ALT-DEL if you absolutely must) and play on. Each war is a marathon, won or lost in a hundred actions 8) Never be afraid to fold by steaming away (assuming you can). What's the worst that can happen - you get the same mission in the next turn?
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Post by dorn on Mar 24, 2020 10:58:38 GMT -6
I will generator is fair on you (I have quite often battle with superior force), however AI is generally caution much more than player. It gives AI advantage as mentioned by director as it is alway easier be chased than be chasing because of torpedoes. So there are several rules which can help you: 1. be caution 2. if it does not help be caution 3. if it does not help be caution and go home (port) And anytime you are under pressure, do not hesitate to start destroyer flotilla attack. You may lost some destroyers but it gives your fleet time to disengage from battle. And important is not to hit enemy ship but put her attack out of order and make chaos.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 24, 2020 11:40:58 GMT -6
The first idea is to examine which nation you are playing, where is it located and where is it going to fight most of its sea battles. Enclosed seas, narrow seas and littoral zones are the highest probability in this regime. Mediterranean Sea, Baltic, North Sea, Sea of Japan, Yellow Sea, Red Sea etc. are those seas. They are narrow and this is important. If you spot a light cruiser with destroyers, be careful that this isn't the scouting force and a large battle force might be behind them. It's a bait and trap. The best defense is to run like the dickens towards a base. If you have coastal submarines that might help you as you get close. Don't fight major sea battles if you don't have to because they are wasteful especially if you are a smaller nation. Raiders and submarines are your best offensive tools for smaller nations.
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Post by akosjaccik on Mar 24, 2020 12:00:38 GMT -6
To (not really) add to the insights above: way back as a beginner I made the mistake of thinking that I have to fight each and every engagement to it's conclusion, preferably winning of course. Now I think differently. In my experience the battle generator actually does a decent enough job, although not above "cheesy stuff" (for example, if you have Bs and some CLs, while your enemy say, a massive CA, you might have to chase that CA with ~2 CL+DDs until the end of times because of "cruiser battles") and in some very rare cases borderline enraging setups (although to be fair I tend to play on smaller fleet sizes where possible varieties are low for any given template) due to it not feeling logical - but my main point is: You don't have to win the individual battles. You have to win the war. It's annoying as hell to waste time with meaningless (dis)engagements, I know, but for a quasi-simulation that's par for the course. In some cases (see that 2 CL example) there were times when I - although accepted the battle to avoid the VP-loss - retreated at the moment I regained control over my forces, even without just sighting the enemy and finally only being able to assess whether I was right or wrong on the AAR screen. Quite frankly while there are some interesting tactical nuances (keeping checking sunrise/sunset times in mind, positioning relative to the wind so that the enemy battleline is blinded by their own smoke given they are coal-fired, positioning destroyers before night attack, etc.), I'd dare to say that your success will depend in... ~50% on quickly realizing which engagements should you take (with a caveat, with the emergence of naval air force the player influence on this diminishes rather rapidly) ~35% on your strategic decisions, including knowing who to go to war with, what kind of ships to build and being able to build enough of them and maybe, MAYBE ~15% on actual battle tactics when finally it all comes down to actually lobbing shells.
Oh, and by the way welcome to both the forums and the game, have fun with/on both!
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Post by frostycouch on Mar 24, 2020 12:06:21 GMT -6
Director, Dorn, Oldpop2000 – thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it. The more I learn, the more I enjoy the game so thank you! That is helpful to know about the force disposition. Just for argument's sake....would it thus benefit me to build fewer Light Cruisers and more Battleships to increase the odds of my BBs showing up in battle? Surely if I have 10 BBs and 0 CLs or DDs, my game will only be able to pull my BBs forward! It's a bit silly but is that a tactic that actually works? Director - your patient approach is quite poker-like . It's very helpful guidance, and I had a few questions about a few of your comments: -Regarding your positioning, is your DD/CL strategy then to try to get the enemy to your rear so you too can fire torpedoes? Then you order flotilla attack? -To your comment about not rushing in, how do you identify when is the right time to attack? If you spot a CL and a couple of DDs, what clues do you look for that it's not a battlecruiser trap? I suppose the problem I foresee is that in order to spot the battlecruiser/BB, you have to be close enough (and that's when they'll attack!). Is it radar or scout planes that help here? (Have not yet developed them in my game). Oldpop2000, you mentioned a similar thing so your advice would be welcome too!
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Post by frostycouch on Mar 24, 2020 12:11:22 GMT -6
Ah, thank you akosjaccik! Just saw your comment, and I appreciate the welcome. That guidance makes sense – I was definitely still at the stage of trying to fight and win every engagement! I am curious....positioning destroyers before night attack, what do you mean by that? Of course I understand your broader comment was that these tactical nuances have just a marginal effect, but I am certainly curious to hear.
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Mar 24, 2020 12:19:02 GMT -6
Just for argument's sake....would it thus benefit me to build fewer Light Cruisers and more Battleships to increase the odds of my BBs showing up in battle? Surely if I have 10 BBs and 0 CLs or DDs, my game will only be able to pull my BBs forward! It's a bit silly but is that a tactic that actually works? To a degree it works. You could have only CAs or BCs available (put your CLs in reserve/different seazone/TP/raider), in such case the game would only draw those in cruiser battles and possibly pit you against inferior enemy forces. I don't think slow (<27kn) BBs can appear in all scenario types though, not even as a fallback option.
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Post by akosjaccik on Mar 24, 2020 12:28:08 GMT -6
I am curious....positioning destroyers before night attack, what do you mean by that? Of course I understand your broader comment was that these tactical nuances have just a marginal effect, but I am certainly curious to hear. Pretty much I can refer back to director 's point 3) of tactical tips: As you need to aim your torpedo to the calculated point of impact, you are already at a severe disadvantage if your enemy is to your front. An intact AI vessel is often hard to hit given their behaviour, but sometimes you can predict their movement due to sighting reports, line of sight of your other ships or just observing that they are disengaging and very likely heading right back to their base. In these cases you might be able to pre-position yourself outside of their visual range roughly like this.
Then again, this mostly applies to early game due to some factors (air aspect, radar, late-game torpedo performance etc.) plus the fact that I have to be cautious of throwing away even destroyers.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 24, 2020 12:51:46 GMT -6
Just some pearls of wisdom gleaned from about thirty years of playing war games.
1. Win wars, not battles. Fight battles carefully and ensure they are necessary toward the strategic goal.
2. 20th Century naval warfare is attritional; built lots of light cruisers, destroyers, corvettes and especially submarines. I build three kinds of cruisers: scout cruisers: trade protection and colonial: and raiders. Each has a different requirement. Some will require torpedoes but others don't. Some will require range and speed so sacrifice torpedoes. You will figure out the requirements for each type.
3. Remember that this is a game. You are playing against a computer program not a human. It will make the same maneuvers and do the same thing in almost every situation if you pay attention.
4. If your enemy is chasing you, bring him close to your coastal guns and let them help you.
5. Once you reach aviation, build air bases and let them help you win battles. Do the same thing as with coastal guns, bring the enemy force close to the coast and let your torpedo bombers, dive bombers and medium bombers have a whack at them. Keep your eye on the weather, its important.
Good luck, and good hunting.
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Post by director on Mar 24, 2020 14:38:58 GMT -6
frostycouch - I'm glad you found my comments helpful. I do tend to go on at greater length than is sometimes helpful (or even readable) but as the famous quote goes, I don't have time to make it shorter. I ran a Byzantium game in RtW1 (the AAR is over in RtW1; PM me if you want the link or the PDF) in which I learned the value of patience and the necessity of not charging into danger. At one point my two battlecruisers were taking a torpedo or two or losing multiple turrets to shell-hits in every action. In the narrative I sacked the admiral (myself) and changed my play-style. Later, I managed a fleet battle against Italy in which I sank (I think) every BB and BC they owned by using good gunnery and a massed destroyer attack. Cripple, then whack; gunfire, then torpedoes. It's my preferred way to fight a surface fleet battle. In a fleet battle, IF the enemy decides to engage (which you can help along by dangling some ships for him to chase) I try to draw the enemy toward my battleline. This has a couple of advantages: movement involving course changes inherently disorders formations so hopefully he comes on in a big ball while I form a line across his approach. If I am REALLY lucky I can get my battleline on one side and my battlecruisers on another (think two adjacent sides of a square). That gives converging fire if he pushes into the 'sack' and increases the time he spends under my fire (and hopefully limits his own fire as he attempts to close). As a general rule, abandon the idea of getting ahead of the enemy. You will almost never get the AI to give up its 'ahead-of-the-beam' fixation; it is a computer and it will sacrifice everything else for that. Even a crippled and sinking AI ship will spin to keep you from getting ahead of it, so your tactic must be to cripple it with gunfire and then torpedo it as it slows or stops. Make them vulnerable to torpedo attack not from position, but from their slow speed. If he is taking shell hits his ships will be injured and slowed, and that's the time to put the sword (DDs) into the bull (BBs). (If he isn't taking shell hits and lots of them, something is seriously wrong and you need to disengage immediately). Since the enemy hates even the threat of torpedo attacks and will flinch away when you order one, you want to get him into knife range before you, um, knife him. Otherwise it is like trying to run across open ground to stab a gunman while he shoots at you. Did not work in WW1; not recommended. I've said before that I run my fleet battles like a land battle: infantry (BBs) to form a solid line, skirmishers (BCs, CLs) to draw them to the point I want them to be at, cavalry (DDs) to smash them when their formation slows and breaks up. If it goes into the pot and you need to open the range, throw in the DDs - he will recoil. You may lose some DDs but you might save some capital ships. Really, it is a Schroedinger's Cat situation. The battlecruisers may be there or not, and you won't really know until they appear - or not. What I do is zoom out a little while I pursue the CL/DD force. If I spot smoke or some 'unknown' ships pop up driving in my direction, I run - hoping I'm at least as fast as his BCs or that darkness falls. Face it - if the enemy CL is running and some other ships come over the horizon, what else can those blobs really be? So it's just situational awareness, which I am prone to lose as the range drops and the bullets fly. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I advise you to build FEWER CLs. Given the way the game generates missions, CLs are probably the most-used ships in the game and therefore, for winning victory points, I believe the most valuable. So I build mine big, fast and nasty and use them to sop up enemy CLs for points; I have on occasion taken on enemy CAs with two of my CLs. What does the AI think of that matchup? It runs - every time - which lets me get across its stern and pound away. You probably can't critically hurt a CA with 6" fire but you can wreck his superstructure, fire control, funnels and such, and punch the belt ends full of holes. And if you slow him down - then the torpedoes come out. In my current USA game I have a more-or-less similar group of 7100-7500 ton CLs with 3" belt, 3.5" turret armor, 2" deck, 8x6" guns and 24-28 knots speed. In the last war they ate up half the French CL fleet and are now eating poorly-armored German CLs like popcorn.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 24, 2020 18:00:22 GMT -6
I will toss my 2 cents in, because everyone's play-style bears a different lesson.
I consider torpedoes a curse and a joy. A curse before 1915 and in the dark- and always, Always, disengage at dusk. I don't care how big your advantage is, how much blood you smell, what a Trafalgar of a day you've had- never press an engagement after dusk with anything larger than 5000 tons. You will throw away a victory far more often than not.
Consider them a joy when you expect nothing from them- if you play on Admiral's level you will not expect any results from your own torpedoes except against stationary ships. If you only count on them for coup-de-grace moves you will always be pleasantly surprised. The greatest value of a torpedo attack is simply Ordering the torpedo attack. That gives you a break when under stress.
Also- don't be afraid to play on Admiral's level. Many people like the complete control and success that comes from Captain's level, but there is much less management and more "imperfection realism" (to my taste at least) if you play on Admiral.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 24, 2020 18:38:39 GMT -6
I just found something interesting to help me remember what kind of cruisers I am building.
For a Trade Protection cruiser, I put TP after its name.
For a Colonial, I put CO.
For a Scout, I put and S.
Cool, I think.
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Post by zardoz on Mar 25, 2020 5:45:50 GMT -6
If you build ships have a look on the other nations what they have. You do not need the super dreadnought with 60.000 t and 12 16 inch guns when the (potenial) enemies have mainly lighter armed ships you can penetrate also with 13 incher.
Keep in mind that a good combination of mediocre big ships with good smaller units, especially destroyer, can outperfom mighty opponents. Therefore, have your big ships at least in the middle and later game covered by a sufficient destroyer force.
In the late game, put as much AA on the ships as possible.
Finally, keep in mind that sinking an enemy CA whitout loosing own big ships is already a victory. Do not risk that by trying to sink the whole enemy fleet.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 25, 2020 8:25:02 GMT -6
If you build ships have a look on the other nations what they have. You do not need the super dreadnought with 60.000 t and 12 16 inch guns when the (potenial) enemies have mainly lighter armed ships you can penetrate also with 13 incher. Keep in mind that a good combination of mediocre big ships with good smaller units, especially destroyer, can outperfom mighty opponents. Therefore, have your big ships at least in the middle and later game covered by a sufficient destroyer force. In the late game, put as much AA on the ships as possible. Finally, keep in mind that sinking an enemy CA whitout loosing own big ships is already a victory. Do not risk that by trying to sink the whole enemy fleet. I use that method myself, I examine my adversary's ships. When the game says I have reached the objective, I am done and head to the barn.
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