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Post by director on Mar 25, 2020 9:20:22 GMT -6
Agreed:
"Stop when you have won."
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Post by frostycouch on Mar 25, 2020 11:03:21 GMT -6
Thanks all! And Director, the detail is definitely welcome and appreciated A few follow-ups as I seek to grasp the concepts a little better: 1. Specialized ships: A few of the above comments indicated that making specialized ships is a good idea, like a scout cruiser, raider cruiser, etc. First question here: what are the different characteristics? I would guess the following: Scout cruiser: Light cruiser. High speed, medium armor & guns, and lots of spotting potential (radar, float planes) Battle-line cruiser: Heavy Cruiser. Medium speed, high armor & guns, low spotting Raider cruiser: Light Cruiser. High speed & extreme range, low armor and guns, lots of spotting Trade protection cruiser: Light cruiser. low speed, high range, medium armor and guns Is that right? I love this sort of specialization but want to make sure I understand it right Second, and perhaps most importantly - why does it make sense to build the specialty ships above with the random battle generator? I would hate to be dropped into a battle with just my scout cruiser if I'm going to be alone. With the current generator, I would think that you would just build as well-rounded ships as possible? 2. Director, could you clarify what you meant by "my battleline on one side and my battlecruisers on another (think two adjacent sides of a square)." I had previously assumed that when you talked about your battleline, you were indeed referring to your main cruisers/BBs?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 25, 2020 12:30:19 GMT -6
First, my source is British Cruisers: Two World Wars and After by Norman Friedman.
After the cruiser was defined as a ship type, the British developed three different requirements and this generated the specifications. This is how it works. You develop a doctrine, then requirements for that doctrine then specifications that fill out those requirements.
The first was to protect seaborne trade or trade protection.
The second was to support the battle fleet with scouts and to beat off torpedo attacks.
The third was to maintain order in the British Empire. In the game, the last would be colonial service.
Trade protection will require the largest numbers but an assessment of the nation and its location is important for the actual numbers.
Fleet support would require stronger, faster and better armed light cruisers possibly sacrificing speed but still having a medium range.
Colonial service would require powerful gun armament, medium range but probably would not require large numbers, depending again on the country and its geographical location. Speed would be need but I am doubtful about torpedoes but say, one torpedo launcher, midships could be useful.
Anyway, I will not go into more, but just to say you have to design and test the designs. 6 in. guns would be the best armament for all the cruisers. WW1 experience told the British that tail chases were the most prominent battle tactic. I've seen this in the game.
Again, I use a naming convention after the name for the ship to ensure I put the cruiser where it was intended to serve.
Anyway, not much, but just some information that might be helpful.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 25, 2020 13:45:32 GMT -6
Here is an interesting suggestion that I haven't had time to try, but some of you can. Setup a fleet exercise, I don't know the specifics, and test your light cruiser designs in the exercise. Let me know in detail how this works, it might be informative.
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Post by dorn on Mar 25, 2020 13:47:01 GMT -6
Thanks all! And Director, the detail is definitely welcome and appreciated A few follow-ups as I seek to grasp the concepts a little better: 1. Specialized ships: A few of the above comments indicated that making specialized ships is a good idea, like a scout cruiser, raider cruiser, etc. First question here: what are the different characteristics? I would guess the following: Scout cruiser: Light cruiser. High speed, medium armor & guns, and lots of spotting potential (radar, float planes) Battle-line cruiser: Heavy Cruiser. Medium speed, high armor & guns, low spotting Raider cruiser: Light Cruiser. High speed & extreme range, low armor and guns, lots of spotting Trade protection cruiser: Light cruiser. low speed, high range, medium armor and guns Is that right? I love this sort of specialization but want to make sure I understand it right Second, and perhaps most importantly - why does it make sense to build the specialty ships above with the random battle generator? I would hate to be dropped into a battle with just my scout cruiser if I'm going to be alone. With the current generator, I would think that you would just build as well-rounded ships as possible? 2. Director, could you clarify what you meant by "my battleline on one side and my battlecruisers on another (think two adjacent sides of a square)." I had previously assumed that when you talked about your battleline, you were indeed referring to your main cruisers/BBs? 1. Specialized ships: I do not think about good idea, more one possibility. Other possibility is using more general purpose design. The first one give you advantage that it cost less to build all ships as you specialized, however it gives you disadvantage that if you do not need that role those ships are far from ideal to other task. Just think about surface raiders. You design according to specialization ship with high speed, long range, minimal armour, minimal firepower (enough for raider). Now you start blockading enemy so you do not need raider but this ship is not suitable for other task so much. If you use her as scout it can work as she is fast but her protection and protection is not on pair with foreign cruisers. And if she patrol area and intercept enemy cruiser she can be in disadvantage. If you build more general purpose cruiser, you can easily switch tasks for that ship. However such ship will be more costly. So there is no "best" approach and this is the beauty of RTW2. 2. director thinks that you can split your forces and attack enemy from his starboard and port together making difficult for him to open broadside without closing to one of those forces
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 25, 2020 14:31:58 GMT -6
My advice:
1) Read up on the naval doctrine of the period. Knowing how naval battles were fight in real life is very helpful for the game.
2) You have many more options if you're faster than the enemy than if you're not: it lets you choose the range more easily (trivially, in situations where you're willing to sacrifice some firepower in order to go end-on to the enemy, it's a bit trickier if you want to keep your whole broadside in play), it gives you margin to take damage and still be able to run, it makes the enemy pull more lead in torpedo attacks, which means that a given angle of turn on your part will cause his torpedos to miss by a longer distance, it makes his destroyers take longer in getting into torpedo range if you turn away, so there's more time for them to take attrition from your battle line's secondary guns and screening cruisers/destroyers, it helps you get into range quicker in stern chases, and reduces the amount of ground you lose if the enemy throws a flotilla attack at you to cover his retreat (but you still have to be careful about chasing too aggressively), and so forth.
3) Make regular course changes (every 3-5 turns) any time that you're within torpedo range of an enemy ship that's within 45 degrees of broadside-on to you. You have some leeway not to do this if you're ahead of his beam at long range, or abeam him at the limit of torpedo range, especially if you have a fast ship, but at close range or when you're behind his beam, it's mandatory. Even capital ships might have torpedoes. At very close range, turn end-on away from him, or, if you can do so quickly in a tight turn, maneuver to place him end-on to you (passing behind him is preferred). As long as you're both broadside to each other in knife-fighting range, or you're approaching him end-on, you should be stepping turn by turn and reevaluating every turn. Turning away is generally preferable at close range if you can't get behind him without spending any more time than you have to broadside-on, but every once in a while you'll spend more time broadside-on in turning away than in turning towards, in which case you should turn towards him and then try to get behind him as quickly as possible.
4) You should only be in knife-fighting range when administering a coup-de-grace, or at night. In the former case, make very sure to turn away before you overtake the enemy ship, then zig-zag across his stern. In the latter, every night engagement should begin with turning your battle line away from the new contact, and ordering a flotilla attack. If things develop so that an enemy heavy ship is well within view of your light ships, and you have enough ships on the far side of him to be relatively sure that there aren't any ships, especially destroyers, within visual range on the other side, you can try to cross the heavy's T with your own heavies. If you're not sure, keep your heavies out of it.
5) Once radar starts coming in, night battles start to resemble day battles, moreso as you get fire control radar and your range increases. In fact, they tend to resemble mid game day battles *more* than late game day battles do, because aircraft aren't a factor. The one thing different from day battles is that you don't have ship type information, so other than what you can glean from the enemy's formation (which can be more or less organized, depending on how badly you've mauled him already), you have to assume that every ship is both a battleship and a destroyer.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 25, 2020 14:35:00 GMT -6
My suggestions are based on my experience playing computer games and working around the US Navy and the government. I am an amateur historian, but it does not make me an expert. Far from it, many of the members are far better at this game than I am. The principles that I learned through military service, working for the government and studying the government procedures through the Naval War College etc. all state that you develop a strategical doctrine and then a tactical doctrine that will fulfill your strategic goals. Then you establish requirements for weapons to accomplish those missions that are determined to be required for the tactical doctrine and then offer specifications to meet those requirements. It is just my way of working. But there are alternatives. I have learned from my experience and readings, that a weapon that is designed to accomplish all missions will fail, because you cannot build a weapon that will do everything.
Figure out how you want to do the job of designing your ships and do it. I just tried a simple fleet exercise and I found it interesting and I will develop my techniques after reading my books and documents from the War College and other sources. I am jazzed about the possibilities.
Enjoy the game, it is just a game. It is meant to be fun.
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Post by aeson on Mar 25, 2020 15:47:25 GMT -6
Second, and perhaps most importantly - why does it make sense to build the specialty ships above with the random battle generator? I would hate to be dropped into a battle with just my scout cruiser if I'm going to be alone. With the current generator, I would think that you would just build as well-rounded ships as possible? The reason to build specialized ships usually comes down to cost. Big powerful general-purpose cruisers are nice, but they're expensive and you don't really need them for all the roles that your cruisers might be called upon to fulfill; using smaller, less capable cruisers where you can will save you money that you can spend on something more important to the strategy you want to pursue.
Another reason is suitability. - Raiders are vulnerable to internment and scuttling by random event even in home waters, can often be lost to relatively minor battle damage, and tend to be better when employed in large numbers; thus, low unit cost tends to be more desirable than capability. - Colonial cruisers may be serving in regions where they're unlikely to see combat, and large ships are in some ways undesirable for covering colonial station requirements (ships displacing over 6,000 tons only count for 4,000 + [displacement]/3 tons on station, plus 25% of the modified tonnage if fitted for colonial service; relatively few stations actually require more than about 6,000 tons on station; providing 'reserve' tonnage on station in case of temporary or permanent loss of ships during war time is usually more costly with big ships than with small ships, though that depends partly on how much of a reserve you're providing; peacetime Active Fleet upkeep is 20% higher overseas than in home waters). - Screening cruisers are there in large part to protect more valuable ships against destroyer and air attack, but a big cruiser can be almost as worthwhile a target as the ships it's meant to protect (especially early on when battleships are still relatively small) and 4" or 5" guns tend to be preferable to 6" or heavier guns for anti-destroyer and anti-aircraft work.
It is worth mentioning that there are both short-term and long-term cost-cutting measures, and some short-term measures will cost you more in the long term while some long-term measures will cost you more in the short term. For example, Short Range and Cramped Accommodations can allow you to save some money in the short term by letting you fit the capability of a big cruiser into a smaller package, but the future value of such a cruiser tends to be low because Short Range precludes using it as a raider and the combination of Short Range and Cramped Accommodations leaves it very inefficient for covering foreign stations so two of the common 'retirement careers' that can cheaply extend the useful service life of a cruiser are more or less unavailable to it.
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Post by director on Mar 25, 2020 20:27:28 GMT -6
1) I generally avoid specialized cruiser designs (except for AA designs) for exactly that reason - whatever I design them for never happens since the random mission generator will always use whatever I don't want and avoid whatever I do want. I do have a weakness for building a big 6"-gunned CL and an exact but smaller copy with 5" armament, especially so if I get a +1 5" gun. But the smaller, 5" ships are put on colonial use and I rarely use them with my battle-line. I did try building torpedo cruisers - and never, ever saw them put in a mission where they could be effective. So - no - no specialized cruisers for me. A specialized design is cheaper until it inevitably lands in a mission it is not suited for and it is then very expensive indeed.
2) If you think of the map as having North at the top, I try to get my capital ships on two adjoining sides - North and East or South and West or some such. I have gotten my capital ships on opposite sides of the enemy but it has been a very rare occurrence (and can lead to torpedoes hitting friendlies) whereas I can usually manage two adjoining sides. This is the same principle as a flanking attack in a land battle.
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Post by wlbjork on Mar 26, 2020 8:35:51 GMT -6
Are you using training? Up to about 1915, my preference is for Gunnery and Night Fighting, after than it's Gunnery and Torpedoes. Night Fighting does have a higher chance of engaging at night, which is something of a double edged sword. On the one hand, you are at higher risk of torpedo attacks but on the other hand, night fights can be much easier as you engage fewer ships at a time. Don't run in real time when the enemy is near and zoom in until you can clearly see the outline of ships, watch and respond to their manoeuvres carefully. Make sure the torpedo range ring is up, and assume the enemy have slightly longer ranged models to avoid unpleasant surprises. With a fair bit of practice, you'll be able to punch above your weight, blasting CAs into sinking hulks with a CL or worse: For reference, the ships are from the Historical Start mod, SMS Stosch being a Bismarck-class Corvette and HMS Acorn being a Mariner-class Sloop.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 26, 2020 9:17:11 GMT -6
Are you using training? Up to about 1915, my preference is for Gunnery and Night Fighting, after than it's Gunnery and Torpedoes. Night Fighting does have a higher chance of engaging at night, which is something of a double edged sword. On the one hand, you are at higher risk of torpedo attacks but on the other hand, night fights can be much easier as you engage fewer ships at a time. Don't run in real time when the enemy is near and zoom in until you can clearly see the outline of ships, watch and respond to their manoeuvres carefully. Make sure the torpedo range ring is up, and assume the enemy have slightly longer ranged models to avoid unpleasant surprises. With a fair bit of practice, you'll be able to punch above your weight, blasting CAs into sinking hulks with a CL or worse: For reference, the ships are from the Historical Start mod, SMS Stosch being a Bismarck-class Corvette and HMS Acorn being a Mariner-class Sloop. I believe in the old adage "you fight like you train". I use gunnery and night fighting initially, then when torpedoes get improved, use torpedoes. Sometimes I just use torpedoes and night fighting. I am now starting to use the fleet exercises and see if that helps my training. I always have the spotting, gunnery and torpedo range turned on.
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Post by wlbjork on Mar 26, 2020 10:42:43 GMT -6
Good point, the gunnery range indicator is also useful for establishing when the enemy are in main battery range and by how much to estimate accuracy penalties due to range.
Likewise, spotting distance is also handy - more because the range at which you actually spot the ship is an indicator as to the size, although other modifiers also affect the actual distance at which a ship is spotted.
One of my common tactics - at least in the early years - is to bring my ships to just outside torpedo range, then shoot the AI from there. They have to manoeuvre to engage with torpedoes, whilst my ships use guns with high accuracy. Once the enemy is forced down to 5 knots or slower, I'll consider allowing torpedo runs to finish them off.
Another thing to watch for is the AI managing to get itself trapped in a small inlet - you can sail past the entrance in a straight line, lobbing shells in with impunity whilst the AI steams in circles losing accuracy and accomplishing very little.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 26, 2020 11:01:35 GMT -6
.... Another thing to watch for is the AI managing to get itself trapped in a small inlet - you can sail past the entrance in a straight line, lobbing shells in with impunity whilst the AI steams in circles losing accuracy and accomplishing very little. I've seen this a couple times and really raked the enemy over the coals. It was great.
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Post by director on Mar 27, 2020 17:24:22 GMT -6
These are from a current RtW1 game, but the tactics apply to this topic, so:
1) Daylight engagement, post-WW1 period. I had a big, fast CA (12x9" guns, 28 knots), 2 CL and 4 DDs. The AI showed up with a Spanish version of a Russian Gangut BC with 12-12" guns.
Although I was outclassed, I decided to sail across the onrushing bull's nose and pepper him with 9" fire while ordering up a DD charge, hoping to frighten him off with torpedoes or maybe injure his propulsion so I could run. I wasn't confident I could get either the DDs or the CA out, but thought it was worth a try given the alternative was to take 12" explosive suppositories. My gunnery was excellent - I was landing 3-5 hits every move. After a few rounds, he turned to run - from the DDs I thought, until I looked at his data. All 4 turrets were out-of-service, 2 front permanently and 2 rear disabled. So... I chased him (shades of the chihuahua chasing the semi!), losing a DD but really pounding him with 9" shells from close range.
And then... a penetrating hit on the top of already-destroyed R turret, a magazine explosion and a very satisfied Director. See, von Spee? You should have closed on those BCs after all...
2) A convoy raid against the French that turned into an all-up fleet battle (my fleet was in European waters courtesy of my British allies). I wound up inadvertently sailing between his scouting and battle forces (they were sailing east, I was sailing north and visibility was OK but not great). Not really a place I wanted to be, so I concentrated on the BCs and a CL that was with them first as they raced west directly at me. Smashed all three, then turned my attention to his oncoming battle-line. Shelled a BB dead-in-the-water, blew up another BB and turned north to disengage since I had a number of ships with moderate damage.
The silly fool came charging after me with his remaining capital ships... so I cranked back up to 21 knots, turned across his line of advance and capped his T with a blizzard of 13" and 15" shells that stopped him, if you will pardon the expression, 'dead'. Then I sent in the DDs and put about 7 torpedoes into each of 3 BBs...
If he hadn't pursued and threated some of my wounded ships I'd have been willing to call it a day, but he made me mad. And he shouldn't oughta done that.
I had a lot of medium damage and lost 3 or 4 DDs, he lost 2 BCs and 5 BBs for a 27,000+ VP win.
'Stop when you have won' also means 'Stop when you have lost'.
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Post by frostycouch on Mar 31, 2020 13:20:12 GMT -6
Thank you! I appreciate everyone's wisdom, this was definitely a helpful thread to strengthen my knowledge of the game. Lots to learn and I'm enjoying the game Cheers
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