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Post by Adseria on Apr 4, 2020 15:11:43 GMT -6
It should probably be impossible to have dual-purpose guns without increased elevation.
Not exactly a critical change, I know; it's more for my peace of mind than anything. |
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Post by aeson on Apr 4, 2020 19:35:32 GMT -6
It should probably be impossible to have dual-purpose guns without increased elevation. As long as you're not engaging something more or less directly overhead, the 40-degree maximum elevation that became normal in the post-WWI period is probably adequate, especially if the ship carrying the gun is not the actual target of the attack. Torpedo runs are fairly low-level attacks, you don't need a particularly high maximum elevation to engage a high-altitude target at long range as long as your gun is powerful enough, and high-altitude level bombing has accuracy issues if you're using unguided weapons while low-altitude level bombing is probably not that much less exposed to AA fire than a torpedo attack would be. Having "normal"-elevation DP guns would probably for the most part be a problem only against dive bombers. |
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Post by Adseria on Apr 4, 2020 19:55:50 GMT -6
It should probably be impossible to have dual-purpose guns without increased elevation. As long as you're not engaging something more or less directly overhead, the 40-degree maximum elevation that became normal in the post-WWI period is probably adequate, especially if the ship carrying the gun is not the actual target of the attack. Torpedo runs are fairly low-level attacks, you don't need a particularly high maximum elevation to engage a high-altitude target at long range as long as your gun is powerful enough, and high-altitude level bombing has accuracy issues if you're using unguided weapons while low-altitude level bombing is probably not that much less exposed to AA fire than a torpedo attack would be. Having "normal"-elevation DP guns would probably for the most part be a problem only against dive bombers. Yes, but that 40-degree elevation you're talking about would have been "increased elevation." Increased elevation means relative to WW1-era elevation (you may have noticed that, since there is no penalty in-game, all ships you build after unlocking it have it installed). For instance, the 4" guns on the Clemson-class (built 1918-1922) had a maximum elevation of 20 degrees. |
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Post by aeson on Apr 5, 2020 9:30:13 GMT -6
Yes, but that 40-degree elevation you're talking about would have been "increased elevation." Increased elevation means relative to WW1-era elevation (you may have noticed that, since there is no penalty in-game, all ships you build after unlocking it have it installed). For instance, the 4" guns on the Clemson-class (built 1918-1922) had a maximum elevation of 20 degrees. And you may have noticed that there's a very significant increase in gun range without the use of Increased Elevation over the course of the game. While that may be partly to do with a simulated introduction of newer, more powerful propellants and resulting increases in muzzle velocity as well as the introduction of more aerodynamic shells, there are very definite limits on the extent to which you can do that sort of thing because it tends to wear out the barrels more rapidly and may risk bursting the gun. On top of that, Increased Elevation is only about a 10% improvement in maximum range, whereas the mid-'30s modification of the Queen Elizabeth-class battleships' turrets to increase maximum elevation from 20 to 30 degrees seems to have improved maximum range by closer to 30% ( ~23,500 yards at 20 degrees or 29,000 yards at 30.1 degrees using 4crh AP shell with SC standard charge, 25,000 yards at 19.2 degrees to 32,500 yards at 30.2 degrees using 6crh AP shell with SC standard charge, 28,732 yards at 20 degrees or 36,500 yards at 30.3 degrees using 6crh AP shell with SC super charge). It seems more likely to me that Increased Elevation is relative to the "current normal" maximum elevation than to "World War I-era normal maximum elevation;" the increase in maximum range certainly isn't sufficient to be an increase from the commonly-20-degree-or-less First World War and earlier maximum elevations to the ~40-degree maximum elevations of later warships.
Also, there's not really a "standard" WWI-era maximum elevation. For example, British capital ship maximum main battery elevations go from about 13.5 degrees in the early 1900s (predreadnoughts, semidreadnoughts, Dreadnought, Bellerophon, Invincible, Indefatigable) to about 15 degrees in the later 1900s to about 1910 (St. Vincent, Neptune, Colossus) to about 20 degrees shortly thereafter (Orion, King George V, Iron Duke, Queen Elizabeth, Revenge, Lion, Queen Mary, Tiger, Renown, Courageous) to about 30 degrees in the late 1910s (Furious, Hood) to 40 degrees in the '20s (Nelson, G3, N3). US battleships, meanwhile, start a maximum elevation of about 15 degrees (predreadnoughts, dreadnoughts, and superdreadnoughts through New Mexico), increasing to 30 degrees in the late 1910s (Tennessee, Colorado) and then to 40 degrees in the early '20s (South Dakota, Lexington). Germany, interestingly, seems to have gone from using a maximum elevation of 25-30 degrees (predreadnoughts) to 20 degrees (Nassau, Von der Tann) to 13.5 degrees (Helgoland, Kaiser, Konig, Moltke, Seydlitz, Derfflinger) to 16 degrees (Baden, Mackensen, c.1915 modification of Helgoland, Kaiser, Konig, Moltke, Seydlitz, Derfflinger) to 20 degrees (Bayern, discussed for Mackensen).
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Post by Adseria on Apr 5, 2020 12:28:54 GMT -6
And you may have noticed that there's a very significant increase in gun range without the use of Increased Elevation over the course of the game. Actually, I haven't. Specifically, I've noticed 3 main sources of range increases over the course of the game:
1: Improvements in gun quality. I always assumed this was due to things like longer barrels with thicker walls allowing higher muzzle velocities (the increase in penetration would seem to support this), rather than increased elevation; it's possible that both effects, and others, are included. 2: The tech "Streamlined Shells," which increases range by 5%. 3: Increased elevation.
Possibly there are other techs that increase range, but I haven't seen them. As far as I can tell, a 15"/Q0 gun without increased elevation seems to have the same range whether the ship is built in 1910 or 1950, aside from the Streamlined Shells increase, which obviously wouldn't affect elevation.
Also, there's not really a "standard" WWI-era maximum elevation I never said there was. I was merely pointing out that WW1-era elevation was generally quite low, while increased elevation represents the kind of upgrade fitted to ships such as HMS Warspite (increased from 20 to 30 degrees), as well as the natural increase in elevation over time, such as from the Clemson-class to later ships, like the Fletcher-class. |
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Post by christian on Apr 5, 2020 17:57:51 GMT -6
also most AA guns regardless of caliber had more than 40 degrees of elevation even in the late 30s people kinda had figured out that shooting dive bombers was important
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Post by cogsandspigots on Apr 6, 2020 9:09:48 GMT -6
I would say this comes with two issues, one practical, one doctrinal.
1. Elevating a 15” gun to 30 degrees is a different engineering problem to elevating a 4” gun to 60-70 degrees or so. Being able to elevate a small gun really high doesn’t necessarily mean you know how to elevate a huge gun kinda high.
2. Like a lot of the early “technologies” it also comes down to conservative nature of navies. Why would you add complexity and cost to making the guns elevate higher if they couldn’t hit anything with the added range? With better fire control and battle ranges increasing, only then did it make sense to make the guns point higher. This is a completely different thought process than “let’s take these small guns and shoot at those annoying flying things.”
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Apr 16, 2020 21:43:35 GMT -6
I...Actually agree with this.
"Increased Elevation" is relative to the 'normal' ww1 gun, around...30 degrees or less.
How can you do DP work with 30 degrees of elevation? I mean you cannnnnnn, but good luck.
Simple fix. DP guns without increased elevation tech do less AA work.
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Post by cogsandspigots on Apr 17, 2020 6:34:07 GMT -6
I...Actually agree with this. "Increased Elevation" is relative to the 'normal' ww1 gun, around...30 degrees or less. How can you do DP work with 30 degrees of elevation? I mean you cannnnnnn, but good luck. Simple fix. DP guns without increased elevation tech do less AA work. 30 degrees is wholely insufficient for any kind of AA work. True DP guns should be able to elevate to 60 degrees at the minimum. I think how it’s set up now with increased elevation and DP being completely separated technologies is the best course of action. |
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Post by Fredrik W on Apr 17, 2020 9:02:05 GMT -6
Increased elevation refers to increased elevation of guns firing at surface targets, and the associated changes in optics. DP guns are a whole different thing and include specialized AA sights, fuze setting equipment etc. So two different things. It takes more than just elevation for a gun to successfully shoot at aircraft.
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Apr 17, 2020 10:26:02 GMT -6
I...Actually agree with this. "Increased Elevation" is relative to the 'normal' ww1 gun, around...30 degrees or less. How can you do DP work with 30 degrees of elevation? I mean you cannnnnnn, but good luck. Simple fix. DP guns without increased elevation tech do less AA work. 30 degrees is wholely insufficient for any kind of AA work. True DP guns should be able to elevate to 60 degrees at the minimum. I think how it’s set up now with increased elevation and DP being completely separated technologies is the best course of action. 30 degrees is plenty enough for torpedo bombers and low altitude planes, historically such guns were used...Perhaps DP is not a good term for them though. Having DP "not increased elevation" thus makes little sense. |
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Post by cogsandspigots on Apr 17, 2020 12:20:43 GMT -6
30 degrees is wholely insufficient for any kind of AA work. True DP guns should be able to elevate to 60 degrees at the minimum. I think how it’s set up now with increased elevation and DP being completely separated technologies is the best course of action. 30 degrees is plenty enough for torpedo bombers and low altitude planes, historically such guns were used...Perhaps DP is not a good term for them though. Having DP "not increased elevation" thus makes little sense. As I stated previously, it’s both a practical and a doctrinal reason for not being correlated. DP means rather small guns being used to shoot at planes. Increased elevation means the maximum sized guns being used to fire at surface targets. The practical aspect is that elevating a large gun to 30 degrees is a different engineering problem than elevating a small gun to 60+ degrees. The doctrinal aspect is that wanting to shoot at planes is a different concept than wanting to be able to shoot surface targets farther away. |
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