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Post by sandersan on Apr 4, 2020 16:13:14 GMT -6
Hello, William!
Glad to see there are several more posts in MNC subforum!
It's a long time since the last time I played wargames.. lol. However, I recently introduced your games to some of our new wargamers and fortunately they get interested in them.
We plan to re-start playing your games from the NSP. However, there is still some minor question about the Basic Game Combat Matrix.
I noticed that such matrix is included in several your games, but I do not understand clearly what are the differences between "short/medium/long range attack" of the arrows, and the "short/medium/long range" below the squares.
IMO, only the arrows count during the gameplay, while the texts below squares can be just ignored. Correct? If we count both, then somewhere in the rule (such as in 3) of basic game turn sequence, p.11) might not be clear.
Could you please state more clearly when we consider the arrows, and when the texts below squares count (or whether they could be totally ignored)?
Thanks!
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Post by sandersan on Apr 6, 2020 17:01:50 GMT -6
To be more precise, look at the "combat modifiers in the basic game" section on p.12. What do "short/medium/long range" mean here? Do they refer to the arrows, or the texts right below the boxes?
And on p.21 in the 7th step of basic game strategic turn, when talking about "... reaches the Short Range band", does it refer to the arrows or the texts below boxes?
Same questions might be everywhere throughout the rulebook, so I'd appreciate it if you could provide a general judgement about when to use the arrows, and when to use the texts right below the boxes.
Thanks!
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Post by williammiller on Apr 6, 2020 20:15:04 GMT -6
Hello sandersan - The colored arrow between two boxes on the display *always* determines the relative distance/range between units in boxes on each side: As an example: A red-side unit in the "Medium" range box firing at a blue-side unit in the "Long" range box would be considered at 'medium' range distance apart for combat/detection and all range/distance purposes. Now, obviously if, say, a scenario setup says to place a unit in a certain range box, then that unit starts in that box...but the range to any other (enemy) unit depends upon which box the enemy unit occupies, and again the color of the arrow that connects the two boxes determines the effective combat distance (range) between the two units. Hope this clears up that part of the rules a bit for you... |
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 6:33:17 GMT -6
Hello sandersan - The colored arrow between two boxes on the display *always* determines the relative distance/range between units in boxes on each side: As an example: A red-side unit in the "Medium" range box firing at a blue-side unit in the "Long" range box would be considered at 'medium' range distance apart for combat/detection and all range/distance purposes. Now, obviously if, say, a scenario setup says to place a unit in a certain range box, then that unit starts in that box...but the range to any other (enemy) unit depends upon which box the enemy unit occupies, and again the color of the arrow that connects the two boxes determines the effective combat distance (range) between the two units. Hope this clears up that part of the rules a bit for you... From your answer it seems like the text below a square is only *the name* of that square, which is mainly used to determine in which square we should place the counters during setup. After that during the gameplay, no matter which action we need to execute (detect, attack, etc.), we *always* only consider the relative distance between divisions by using the arrows, right? And is here any counterexample? |
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 6:48:49 GMT -6
And I think it's kinda weird that the relative distance is considered as "short" when divisions on both sides are all in square "medium range".
Could you please explain why?
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 9:26:40 GMT -6
williammiller, And when we resolve ASW based on basic rules, it says "ASW attacks may only be made against submarines in the same hex". But how it's possible? For there is no map, but only the Basic Game Combat Matrix is used in the basic rules.
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Post by williammiller on Apr 7, 2020 11:25:50 GMT -6
And I think it's kinda weird that the relative distance is considered as "short" when divisions on both sides are all in square "medium range". Could you please explain why? Do not look at the range bands as the distance each side is from a fixed point between them, as that would be incorrect: The range bands represent each individual division's maneuvering to get to a particular distance from an enemy division in a particular opposing square. So, in effect, each division on the combat matrix could occupy a different position on a real 2D map...the matrix simply shows that division's attempts to maneuver against the enemy divisions.
Also, it is much more difficult to open up to a longer distance against multiple opposing ship formations (they can sandwich you, they can cut you off, etc), so the distance logic is setup to reflect that fact with the calculated distances shown. Obviously it will not be perfect, since it is a 1D representation of a 2D arena, but I think it does the job rather well.
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 11:34:45 GMT -6
And I think it's kinda weird that the relative distance is considered as "short" when divisions on both sides are all in square "medium range". Could you please explain why? Do not look at the range bands as the distance each side is from a fixed point between them, as that would be incorrect: The range bands represent each individual division's maneuvering to get to a particular distance from an enemy division in a particular opposing square. So, in effect, each division on the combat matrix could occupy a different position on a real 2D map...the matrix simply shows that division's attempts to maneuver against the enemy divisions.
Also, it is much more difficult to open up to a longer distance against multiple opposing ship formations (they can sandwich you, they can cut you off, etc), so the distance logic is setup to reflect that fact with the calculated distances shown. Obviously it will not be perfect, since it is a 1D representation of a 2D arena, but I think it does the job rather well.
So practically we use only the arrows for determination of relative distance. And the range bands can be totally ignored except the case when divisions are destinated at the specific squares? |
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Post by williammiller on Apr 7, 2020 11:38:52 GMT -6
Do not look at the range bands as the distance each side is from a fixed point between them, as that would be incorrect: The range bands represent each individual division's maneuvering to get to a particular distance from an enemy division in a particular opposing square. So, in effect, each division on the combat matrix could occupy a different position on a real 2D map...the matrix simply shows that division's attempts to maneuver against the enemy divisions.
Also, it is much more difficult to open up to a longer distance against multiple opposing ship formations (they can sandwich you, they can cut you off, etc), so the distance logic is setup to reflect that fact with the calculated distances shown. Obviously it will not be perfect, since it is a 1D representation of a 2D arena, but I think it does the job rather well.
So practically we use only the arrows for determination of relative distance. And the range bands can be totally ignored except the case when divisions are destinated at the specific squares? Yes, correct. |
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 12:01:01 GMT -6
williammiller, And when we resolve ASW based on basic rules, it says "ASW attacks may only be made against submarines in the same hex". But how it's possible? For there is no map, but only the Basic Game Combat Matrix is used in the basic rules. , and how we execute ASW in basic rules? Not to mention units from both sides cannot be in the same square. |
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Post by williammiller on Apr 7, 2020 12:23:49 GMT -6
For purposes of the Basic Game rules only, any divisions that are at 'short' range with each other can perform ASW - so if you have a sub that is at short range with a surface group then the sub can be detected/attacked by that group using the ASW rules as normal. Such allowances have to be made from time-to-time with regards to engagement ranges/etc for the basic game rules...
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Post by williammiller on Apr 7, 2020 12:26:59 GMT -6
Note: I'm going to be unavailable for the next 12 hours or so, but will catch up when I return.
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Post by sandersan on Apr 7, 2020 12:28:25 GMT -6
For purposes of the Basic Game rules only, any divisions that are at 'short' range with each other can perform ASW - so if you have a sub that is at short range with a surface group then the sub can be detected/attacked by that group using the ASW rules as normal. Such allowances have to be made from time-to-time with regards to engagement ranges/etc for the basic game rules... Okay, I see. So "in the same hex" can be understood as "at the short attack range"? |
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Post by williammiller on Apr 7, 2020 12:30:26 GMT -6
For purposes of the Basic Game rules only, any divisions that are at 'short' range with each other can perform ASW - so if you have a sub that is at short range with a surface group then the sub can be detected/attacked by that group using the ASW rules as normal. Such allowances have to be made from time-to-time with regards to engagement ranges/etc for the basic game rules... Okay, I see. So "in the same hex" can be understood as "at the short attack range"? For Basic Game purposes, yes...since there are no actual hexes you need to make some adjustments to the rules to accommodate the differences, and detailing all possible variations in the rules would have doubled the length I'm afraid. |
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