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Post by christian on Apr 8, 2020 9:16:37 GMT -6
i am unsure if it is intentional armor weights much more than real life or not but i will be posting it here in the bug reports tab if it is intentional armor is too heavy please move it to suggestions this can be treated as a suggestion/bug report to reduce flight deck armor weight to realistic amounts a 3 inch deck (76mm) on a 62k ton carrier with maxed machinery and armor tech will have a flight deck armor weight of 7622 tons compared to the real life counterpart midway carrier with a 281x34 m 3 inch deck with the ship weighing in at 62k tons www.navypedia.org/ships/usa/us_cv_midway.htmhowever according to www.industrialmetalsupply.com/Weight-Calculatorand www.twmetals.com/resources/calculators.htmlits flight deck armor should weight between 5699.9 and 5708 (latter one with 4340 steel as its closest to ww2 armor steel density wise) thats 25% heavier and that is assuming that the entire flight deck of the midway was armored and that it was equal thickness over every single part of it for a 90k ton ship in game the flight deck is 10782 tons while in order to achieve such a flight deck weight you would need a solid plate in equal thickness over every single part 40m by 450m the h42 was expected to be 308 meters long and 42 meters wide (according to wiki) and weight almost 90k tons this means our carrier would be 142 meters longer than a real life 90k battleship design if we cut our deck lenght down to 300 meters the flight deck armor of this 90k ton carrier would weight less than the in game midway does currently (since horsepower matters for flight deck weight i gave the ship 30 knots speed oil firing 1900 great britain start game and maxed out machinery and armor tech) it seems like flight deck armor is atleast 25% too heavy on large carriersAttachments:
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Post by williammiller on Apr 8, 2020 10:45:47 GMT -6
Thanks for the report, will look at this.
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 8, 2020 13:25:42 GMT -6
The big problem seems to be that the ratio goes up as the ship gets bigger. I would expect flight deck armor to consume more weight than normal deck armor because you need a stronger structure to support the weight higher up in the ship. But I would expect that factor to be constant.
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Post by christian on Apr 8, 2020 15:05:49 GMT -6
The big problem seems to be that the ratio goes up as the ship gets bigger. I would expect flight deck armor to consume more weight than normal deck armor because you need a stronger structure to support the weight higher up in the ship. But I would expect that factor to be constant. this it seems like flight armor gets continually heavier the heavier the ship is it really makes very big ships very very weight and money inefficient
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 8, 2020 15:14:16 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck.
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Post by christian on Apr 8, 2020 18:57:44 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck. i dont remember ever seeing a midway with 4x2 5 guns on top of the flight deck (2 in front and behind the main tower) i always remember the midway having the guns below the flight deck on the sides of the ship anyways wether or not the midways deck was completely 3 inch or not does not matter what matters is that a solid plate the size of midways deck 3 inches thick weighed significantly less (25%) than a midway like ship flight deck of 3 inches thickness does in game and we also know that there are weaknesses in the games flight deck thus that should reduce the weight BELOW what the solid plate would weight thus armor is still 25% too heavy
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 8, 2020 19:17:13 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck. i dont remember ever seeing a midway with 4x2 5 guns on top of the flight deck (2 in front and behind the main tower) i always remember the midway having the guns below the flight deck on the sides of the ship The drawing was a 1941 preliminary design. She was not laid down until 1943 and did not join the fleet until 1947. Things change over time, especially during wartime. However, the only issue with your idea is that every nation had a different armor plate. So, if you are Germany, then you would have Krupp cemented or non-cemented, British would have maybe Harvey or later Krupp, the US might have STS and the list goes on and on. In other words, if you want accuracy in armor plate weight, then each nation would have to have its own armor plate type. I am not saying you could not do that, make a list of representative armor types and designate them for each nation then each armor type would have its own weight, but that would add to the complexity of the game. Just my thoughts.
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Post by captainloggy on Apr 9, 2020 2:38:39 GMT -6
I think that is already in the game to a degree, represented by research levels that reduce armour weight.
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Post by christian on Apr 9, 2020 2:59:54 GMT -6
I think that is already in the game to a degree, represented by research levels that reduce armour weight. keep in mind this was with full armor tech so maximum weight reduction armor tech still only grants 7% armor weight reduction (realistic because armor dident get lighter just FAR FAR FAR more effective)
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 9, 2020 5:40:21 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck. View Attachment As you say steel plate weights about 40 pounds per inch per square foot. A long ton in turn is 2240 pounds. So 80 lbs (2 inch) flight deck would weight 87991.2x80÷2240= 3142.5 long tons. A 140 lbs (3.5 inch) flight deck, which is AFAIK what Midway actually had, would weight 87991.2x140÷2240= 5499.5 long tons. These are not accounting for any additional structural support needed for the heavy flight deck (this is far, far more topical for Midway style design where the hangar and flight deck is dead weight, less so for UK/Japan style where it was structural) or more generally countermeasures for the top weight such as increased beam or ballast. And as you say the flight deck does not run the entire length of the ship, but about 2/3 of it. In addition, at least on British and Japanese AFD carriers it did not extend the full width of the flight deck either. Rather, it was restricted to cover the hangars at the center of the ship and hangar top armour is actually the more correct term than armoured flight deck is. In-game it's weight should be heavily dependant on the aircraft complement, less so on size of the ship.
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Post by christian on Apr 9, 2020 6:01:22 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck. As you say steel plate weights about 40 pounds per inch per square foot. A long ton in turn is 2240 pounds. So 80 lbs (2 inch) flight deck would weight 87991.2x80÷2240= 3142.5 long tons. A 140 lbs (3.5 inch) flight deck, which is AFAIK what Midway actually had, would weight 87991.2x140÷2240= 5499.5 long tons. These are not accounting for any additional structural support needed for the heavy flight deck (this is far, far more topical for Midway style design where the hangar and flight deck is dead weight, less so for UK/Japan style where it was structural) or more generally countermeasures for the top weight such as increased beam or ballast. And as you say the flight deck does not run the entire length of the ship, but about 2/3 of it. In addition, in many AFD carriers it did not extend the full width of the flight deck either. Rather, it was restricted to cover the hangars at the center of the ship and hangar top armour is actually the more correct term than armoured flight deck is. In-game it's weight should be heavily dependant on the aircraft complement, less so on size of the ship. very much so but again something is very wrong when in real life the armored deck covered at most 50-60% of the flight deck that a real life solid steel plate the size of the INTIRE flight deck of the midway weights 25% less than a carrier in game with the same thickness deck which again as said usually does not cover ANYTHING but the hangar (which usually covers the intire ships citadel) also midways hangar was quite big with midway being able to house up to 137 planes
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 9, 2020 6:50:55 GMT -6
As you say steel plate weights about 40 pounds per inch per square foot. A long ton in turn is 2240 pounds. So 80 lbs (2 inch) flight deck would weight 87991.2x80÷2240= 3142.5 long tons. A 140 lbs (3.5 inch) flight deck, which is AFAIK what Midway actually had, would weight 87991.2x140÷2240= 5499.5 long tons. These are not accounting for any additional structural support needed for the heavy flight deck (this is far, far more topical for Midway style design where the hangar and flight deck is dead weight, less so for UK/Japan style where it was structural) or more generally countermeasures for the top weight such as increased beam or ballast. And as you say the flight deck does not run the entire length of the ship, but about 2/3 of it. In addition, in many AFD carriers it did not extend the full width of the flight deck either. Rather, it was restricted to cover the hangars at the center of the ship and hangar top armour is actually the more correct term than armoured flight deck is. In-game it's weight should be heavily dependant on the aircraft complement, less so on size of the ship. very much so but again something is very wrong when in real life the armored deck covered at most 50-60% of the flight deck that a real life solid steel plate the size of the INTIRE flight deck of the midway weights 25% less than a carrier in game with the same thickness deck which again as said usually does not cover ANYTHING but the hangar (which usually covers the intire ships citadel) also midways hangar was quite big with midway being able to house up to 137 planes Midway's hangar seems barely larger than the double hangars on Shokaku or Ark Royal. In-game, with the deck park mechanics as yet unimplemented, it would probably correspond to more like 80 aircraft.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 9, 2020 8:16:36 GMT -6
I am a little confused... which isn't hard to do. The armor on the flight deck of the Midway was Class B STS non-face-hardened armor which weighs about 40 pounds per square foot. Now the original deck was 2.02 acres or 87991.2 square feet. Some one better at math might want confirm this. So, what is the weight of the deck. BTW, according to the original drawings, the 2 inch STS armored deck did not cover the full length of the deck. Here is a drawing of the scheme that was eventually the USS Midway. Note that the 2 inch STS does not run the full length of the deck. The 3.5 inches is the thickness of the main deck or hangar deck. As you say steel plate weights about 40 pounds per inch per square foot. A long ton in turn is 2240 pounds. So 80 lbs (2 inch) flight deck would weight 87991.2x80÷2240= 3142.5 long tons. A 140 lbs (3.5 inch) flight deck, which is AFAIK what Midway actually had, would weight 87991.2x140÷2240= 5499.5 long tons. These are not accounting for any additional structural support needed for the heavy flight deck (this is far, far more topical for Midway style design where the hangar and flight deck is dead weight, less so for UK/Japan style where it was structural) or more generally countermeasures for the top weight such as increased beam or ballast. And as you say the flight deck does not run the entire length of the ship, but about 2/3 of it. In addition, at least on British and Japanese AFD carriers it did not extend the full width of the flight deck either. Rather, it was restricted to cover the hangars at the center of the ship and hangar top armour is actually the more correct term than armoured flight deck is. In-game it's weight should be heavily dependant on the aircraft complement, less so on size of the ship. Oh I like it when one of you math geniuses come to my aid. Thanks. Looks good.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 10, 2020 8:59:44 GMT -6
Just a question about the USS Midway. Has anyone figured out why the armored deck does not go the length of the flight deck? Don't use the drawing I provided. Search the internet for original drawing of the USS Midway.
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Post by christian on Apr 11, 2020 5:07:24 GMT -6
Just a question about the USS Midway. Has anyone figured out why the armored deck does not go the length of the flight deck? Don't use the drawing I provided. Search the internet for original drawing of the USS Midway. too heavy and protects nothing of value flight deck armor usually only covers the hangar and now the bow/stern its AON true its a slightly smaller hangar than shokaku (by like 1000 m^3 which is not alot when the hangar total is 33000m^3) point is the deck armor is still hideously overweight by around 25% if not more
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