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Post by christian on Apr 11, 2020 18:23:35 GMT -6
it would be very nice if before you ready your planes you could choose whether to load AP SAP or HE bombs depending on the threat you are facing currently dive bombers will only load the type of bomb currently researched (if you havent researched AP bombs they will drop SAP if you have researched AP they will drop AP) and there is no way to drop high explosive bombs
in a scenario when you are facing unarmored carriers or light cruisers (or light carriers) it might be beneficial to drop high explosive bombs instead of AP this is currently NOT possible which is a bit annoying as cls cvls and dds often take overpens from 800-1500 lb AP bombs (you cant unresearch AP bombs)
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 11, 2020 19:14:45 GMT -6
it would be very nice if before you ready your planes you could choose whether to load AP SAP or HE bombs depending on the threat you are facing currently dive bombers will only load the type of bomb currently researched (if you havent researched AP bombs they will drop SAP if you have researched AP they will drop AP) and there is no way to drop high explosive bombs in a scenario when you are facing unarmored carriers or light cruisers (or light carriers) it might be beneficial to drop high explosive bombs instead of AP this is currently NOT possible which is a bit annoying as cls cvls and dds often take overpens from 800-1500 lb AP bombs (you cant unresearch AP bombs) First, a disclaimer. I don't actually know how the removal and rearming of naval aircraft is implemented in the game. However, I do know how it was done in the fleet. First of all, you generally don't have enough ordnance teams to do all the aircraft in a squadron. When the order comes down to change the bomb type, one team will move the bomb cart underneath the wing or fuselage, jack up the bomb tray, then someone will release the fasteners holding the bomb. Once that is done, then the bomb is rolled to the ammunition elevator and another bomb, the replacement is rolled over to the plane and procedure is reversed. Now, if you are changing from torpedoes to bombs or vice-versa, then it gets much more complex. You have to remove the torpedo the same way as the bomb, move it to the ammunition elevator, but another team has to remove the torpedo racks, move them to the hangar side wall, and then install bomb racks. Then the bomb is rolled over to the aircraft and lifted up, attached the the ordnance chief will shake the bomb to ensure it is attached and secure. For an eighteen plane squadron, this could take almost an hour before all planes are completed and word is now given the launch officer. If the planes are in the hangar, they will have to be moved to the lift. If they are on the deck, then nothing moves until the ordnance crews have left the deck and all the equipment has been secured. Sound like fun? Well it isn't, especially in heavy seas, humid conditions, high heat or emergencies. This problem of changing from bombs to torpedoes is what cost the Japanese at least three fleet carriers. My advice; send them with what ever they have loaded. The side that launches first and strikes first, generally wins the battle. Each navy had its own allocation of ground crews to each squadron. Sometimes the ground crews were assigned to the squadrons, but sometimes to the ship. The US Navy initially assigned the ground crews to the air wings but later changed that and assigned them to a ship.
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2020 2:19:16 GMT -6
it would be very nice if before you ready your planes you could choose whether to load AP SAP or HE bombs depending on the threat you are facing currently dive bombers will only load the type of bomb currently researched (if you havent researched AP bombs they will drop SAP if you have researched AP they will drop AP) and there is no way to drop high explosive bombs in a scenario when you are facing unarmored carriers or light cruisers (or light carriers) it might be beneficial to drop high explosive bombs instead of AP this is currently NOT possible which is a bit annoying as cls cvls and dds often take overpens from 800-1500 lb AP bombs (you cant unresearch AP bombs) First, a disclaimer. I don't actually know how the removal and rearming of naval aircraft is implemented in the game. However, I do know how it was done in the fleet. First of all, you generally don't have enough ordnance teams to do all the aircraft in a squadron. When the order comes down to change the bomb type, one team will move the bomb cart underneath the wing or fuselage, jack up the bomb tray, then someone will release the fasteners holding the bomb. Once that is done, then the bomb is rolled to the ammunition elevator and another bomb, the replacement is rolled over to the plane and procedure is reversed. Now, if you are changing from torpedoes to bombs or vice-versa, then it gets much more complex. You have to remove the torpedo the same way as the bomb, move it to the ammunition elevator, but another team has to remove the torpedo racks, move them to the hangar side wall, and then install bomb racks. Then the bomb is rolled over to the aircraft and lifted up, attached the the ordnance chief will shake the bomb to ensure it is attached and secure. For an eighteen plane squadron, this could take almost an hour before all planes are completed and word is now given the launch officer. If the planes are in the hangar, they will have to be moved to the lift. If they are on the deck, then nothing moves until the ordnance crews have left the deck and all the equipment has been secured. Sound like fun? Well it isn't, especially in heavy seas, humid conditions, high heat or emergencies. This problem of changing from bombs to torpedoes is what cost the Japanese at least three fleet carriers. My advice; send them with what ever they have loaded. The side that launches first and strikes first, generally wins the battle. Each navy had its own allocation of ground crews to each squadron. Sometimes the ground crews were assigned to the squadrons, but sometimes to the ship. The US Navy initially assigned the ground crews to the air wings but later changed that and assigned them to a ship. i mean before your strike is ready you can change the payload once the strike is ready at the cost of time yes this was mostly a suggestion to do it so you can use HE and SAP in general aka BEFORE the planes are even ready on deck and they still need a payload selected much like before you ready the planes you choose whether or not the torpedo bombers glide bomb with bombs or they torpedo bomb this is the exact same just what type of bomb the bombers use
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 12, 2020 2:56:05 GMT -6
AP bombs should really be far, far more rare in general, particularly for carrier dive bombers. I don't think US carriers even stocked any until after Midway* even though US in general had AP bombs (the Army Airforces had 5 types ranging 600-1400 lbs converted from seacoast artillery shells). Japanese did not generally use any for dive bombers. British used USN 1600 lb AP bombs to attack Tirpitz with Barracudas rather than native bomb design. *"A.P. bombs suitable for our present dive bombers are required. With present 500 and 1000 lb. bombs attack against armored ships does not disable until ship has been knocked to pieces by many more hits than should be necessary." www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Midway/Midway-Carriers.html
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 12, 2020 8:10:26 GMT -6
First, a disclaimer. I don't actually know how the removal and rearming of naval aircraft is implemented in the game. However, I do know how it was done in the fleet. First of all, you generally don't have enough ordnance teams to do all the aircraft in a squadron. When the order comes down to change the bomb type, one team will move the bomb cart underneath the wing or fuselage, jack up the bomb tray, then someone will release the fasteners holding the bomb. Once that is done, then the bomb is rolled to the ammunition elevator and another bomb, the replacement is rolled over to the plane and procedure is reversed. Now, if you are changing from torpedoes to bombs or vice-versa, then it gets much more complex. You have to remove the torpedo the same way as the bomb, move it to the ammunition elevator, but another team has to remove the torpedo racks, move them to the hangar side wall, and then install bomb racks. Then the bomb is rolled over to the aircraft and lifted up, attached the the ordnance chief will shake the bomb to ensure it is attached and secure. For an eighteen plane squadron, this could take almost an hour before all planes are completed and word is now given the launch officer. If the planes are in the hangar, they will have to be moved to the lift. If they are on the deck, then nothing moves until the ordnance crews have left the deck and all the equipment has been secured. Sound like fun? Well it isn't, especially in heavy seas, humid conditions, high heat or emergencies. This problem of changing from bombs to torpedoes is what cost the Japanese at least three fleet carriers. My advice; send them with what ever they have loaded. The side that launches first and strikes first, generally wins the battle. Each navy had its own allocation of ground crews to each squadron. Sometimes the ground crews were assigned to the squadrons, but sometimes to the ship. The US Navy initially assigned the ground crews to the air wings but later changed that and assigned them to a ship. i mean before your strike is ready you can change the payload once the strike is ready at the cost of time yes this was mostly a suggestion to do it so you can use HE and SAP in general aka BEFORE the planes are even ready on deck and they still need a payload selected much like before you ready the planes you choose whether or not the torpedo bombers glide bomb with bombs or they torpedo bomb this is the exact same just what type of bomb the bombers use I understand, but the timing and procedure is identical. It takes time to bring the ordnance up from the ammunition holds which are below waterline, and then roll them out to the bird. But I understand what you are saying.
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2020 8:13:41 GMT -6
i mean before your strike is ready you can change the payload once the strike is ready at the cost of time yes this was mostly a suggestion to do it so you can use HE and SAP in general aka BEFORE the planes are even ready on deck and they still need a payload selected much like before you ready the planes you choose whether or not the torpedo bombers glide bomb with bombs or they torpedo bomb this is the exact same just what type of bomb the bombers use I understand, but the timing and procedure is identical. It takes time to bring the ordnance up from the ammunition holds which are below waterline, and then roll them out to the bird. But I understand what you are saying. yeah but it already does currently while loading bombs this would just be so you pre selected (before they start rolling ammo up) what bombs you want to use
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 12, 2020 8:33:12 GMT -6
I understand, but the timing and procedure is identical. It takes time to bring the ordnance up from the ammunition holds which are below waterline, and then roll them out to the bird. But I understand what you are saying. yeah but it already does currently while loading bombs this would just be so you pre selected (before they start rolling ammo up) what bombs you want to use You want to be able to direct the bomb loads after the target has been chosen, correct. The ordnance loads would be chose by the air wing commander and the Captain during the Briefing for the mission. Target type, range to target would be established at that briefing. Intel on target types would determine the ordnance type along with availability.
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 12, 2020 22:15:04 GMT -6
Reading some of the other Midway AARs at ibiblio, I came across this: www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Midway/Midway-CinCPac.htmlIn which it is mentioned that the air attacks from Midway had hit Soryu and set her on fire (when from postwar reports we know this was not the case). But the really bizarre part is that when the US carrier strikes arrived, the report says that Soryu was reported to still be smoking, and showed signs of "heavy damage" from the earlier "hits", all of this before she had been hit at all. I have never heard any mention of this mix-up in postwar accounts. Does anyone know what could have caused such a misconception to persist? I can understand the first strike being confused about the results of their strike, but the fact that the strike that actually did the damage reported existing damage when they arrived on scene is bizarre. The one thing I can think of is that Soryu had those unusual side funnels, which, if they were producing visible smoke might have given the impression of a fire in the hangar deck with smoke escaping out the sides of the ship, but I'd think that the initial strike would have noticed that on the way in and not seen any difference afterward.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 12, 2020 22:57:12 GMT -6
Reading some of the other Midway AARs at ibiblio, I came across this: www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Midway/Midway-CinCPac.htmlIn which it is mentioned that the air attacks from Midway had hit Soryu and set her on fire (when from postwar reports we know this was not the case). But the really bizarre part is that when the US carrier strikes arrived, the report says that Soryu was reported to still be smoking, and showed signs of "heavy damage" from the earlier "hits", all of this before she had been hit at all. I have never heard any mention of this mix-up in postwar accounts. Does anyone know what could have caused such a misconception to persist? I can understand the first strike being confused about the results of their strike, but the fact that the strike that actually did the damage reported existing damage when they arrived on scene is bizarre. The one thing I can think of is that Soryu had those unusual side funnels, which, if they were producing visible smoke might have given the impression of a fire in the hangar deck with smoke escaping out the sides of the ship, but I'd think that the initial strike would have noticed that on the way in and not seen any difference afterward. If you look at the date for the report referenced, it is 6/15/42. However, if you go to www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Midway/Midway-Carriers.html, it's date is 16 June 1942, one day later. Nimitz received reports from Midway Island which included the estimated bombing hits by the aircraft from Midway Island. Those were level bombing missions and they almost never hit the target and the crews assumed that they had and that is what they report over the wireless radios to Midway Island. The torpedo bombers and dive bombers were mostly all shot down because they had no escorts. This meant that they could not provide any credible reports. The bottom line is that until the fleet commanders were certain that they were out of the area, they could not report to Nimitz. The Battle actually ended on June 6 with Spruance retiring. This was just a matter of Nimitz attempting to provide King with early information on the damage reports about the Japanese fleet. I am certain a much more accurate report was sent later.
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 13, 2020 5:00:29 GMT -6
The bottom line is that until the fleet commanders were certain that they were out of the area, they could not report to Nimitz. The Battle actually ended on June 6 with Spruance retiring. This was just a matter of Nimitz attempting to provide King with early information on the damage reports about the Japanese fleet. I am certain a much more accurate report was sent later. I'm not surprised that pilots made inaccurate observations, or that such observations made it into an early report. I'm surprised that two separate strikes at two separate times made the *same* inaccurate observation about the *same* ship. If you didn't have Japanese amounts available to tell you otherwise, that Soryu was damaged by bombers from Midway before the carrier strikes would seem fairly certain, because however credible the individual reports might have been, they corroborated each other. I doubt that this actually would have been cleared up before the end of the war, because with multiple reports saying the same thing, and Soryu having been sunk in the end, the USN would have had no reason to doubt it until Japanese accounts were found to say that Soryu was undamaged until the carrier strikes hit.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 7:13:16 GMT -6
The bottom line is that until the fleet commanders were certain that they were out of the area, they could not report to Nimitz. The Battle actually ended on June 6 with Spruance retiring. This was just a matter of Nimitz attempting to provide King with early information on the damage reports about the Japanese fleet. I am certain a much more accurate report was sent later. I'm not surprised that pilots made inaccurate observations, or that such observations made it into an early report. I'm surprised that two separate strikes at two separate times made the *same* inaccurate observation about the *same* ship. If you didn't have Japanese amounts available to tell you otherwise, that Soryu was damaged by bombers from Midway before the carrier strikes would seem fairly certain, because however credible the individual reports might have been, they corroborated each other. I doubt that this actually would have been cleared up before the end of the war, because with multiple reports saying the same thing, and Soryu having been sunk in the end, the USN would have had no reason to doubt it until Japanese accounts were found to say that Soryu was undamaged until the carrier strikes hit. You have no idea how chaotic air strikes can be, mate. Don't believe the movies, it can be utter chaos until you get back to the ship. You launch, meet your air wing, then proceed to the target or search for the target then attack. There are some different modes. I will post an official Naval aircraft document from 1942. Then you get your orders from the strike leader and head to you assigned target or just look around for the types of targets assigned. Sometimes, you can't find them in the mist and clouds, so you dive on the only target you can find. I don't want to sound like an expert, but my dad flew in SBD's and TBF's from the Saratoga during the war, you can't believe the things he told me. Sometimes its the radios. They were four channel systems and sometimes messages were garbled, sometimes misread etc. Strike leaders would try to get messages back to the ship concerning targeting and success in case he did not return.
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 13, 2020 22:13:36 GMT -6
You have no idea how chaotic air strikes can be, mate. On the contrary, the chaos is exactly why I'm surprised. If the two strikes had both given inaccurate reports as to Soryu's condition, but the inaccuracies had not been consistent with each other, I would not be surprised, as that's consistent with the chaos of battle. The more chaotic things are, the more ways there are for someone involved to misunderstand what's going on, and so the less likely it is for two people involved in different parts of the situation to misunderstand the same detail in the same way. Consistent stories are an *unchaotic* thing, whether they're true or false. There has to have been *something* going on with Soryu that caused the misunderstood details as to her condition to be the same for both strikes.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 14, 2020 6:40:41 GMT -6
You have no idea how chaotic air strikes can be, mate. On the contrary, the chaos is exactly why I'm surprised. If the two strikes had both given inaccurate reports as to Soryu's condition, but the inaccuracies had not been consistent with each other, I would not be surprised, as that's consistent with the chaos of battle. The more chaotic things are, the more ways there are for someone involved to misunderstand what's going on, and so the less likely it is for two people involved in different parts of the situation to misunderstand the same detail in the same way. Consistent stories are an *unchaotic* thing, whether they're true or false. There has to have been *something* going on with Soryu that caused the misunderstood details as to her condition to be the same for both strikes. Let me do some further research in some interviews with Japanese officers and some books that I have to see what the problem was. I will get back today, I am retired. Trust me, I have the whole day to goof off. I would like to investigate this. Update: Here is your quote from the report to King: © Pacific Wrecks - Major Lofton R. Henderson Source: www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/sbd/2129/index.html[I believe this is the answer. The strafing and near misses misled Nagumo and incoming air strikes. During the strafing's, they might have hit fuel bowser's etc. and caused damage that generated smoke. Nagumo probably reported this to Yamamoto and we intercepted the message. The B-17's came in after Henderson's attack and they bracketed the Hiryu and Soryu but did not hit them. The surviving pilots of Henderson's Marine dive bomber squadron reported hits, but those were never confirmed. The only surviving captain was Aoki of the Akagi and he stated that he did not believe any of the carriers were hit by the Midway attack group. They hit only by the dive bombers. Personally, I think the answer is the near misses and strafing coupled with the low clouds which caused the B-17's some problems identifying and unloading their bombs which caused inaccurate reports by the surviving Marine dive bomber pilots. It was their job to report ASAP, after leaving the area damage to the enemy, their current location and any losses or problems with the surviving aircraft.
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 14, 2020 10:58:30 GMT -6
The bit about Nagumo reporting bomb hits on Akagi during the attack from Midway, when her captain reported none, is especially interesting given that he was *on* Akagi, and she only received one direct hit, fairly shortly before he left the ship. *That's* chaos for you.
Nagumo's idea that Soryu had been hit would *almost* seem to corroborate the reports from the two American strikes, except for the fact that he reported hits on his own ship that never occurred, and that there were enough survivors from Soryu that we would expect any hits that she did receive from the Midway planes to show up in survivor's testimony.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 14, 2020 12:02:48 GMT -6
Timing for the Midway and carrier fleet attacks on Japanese carriers
At 0700, four B-26's attacked the Japanese carriers with torpedoes At 0700, six Avengers from Midway also attacked the Japanese carriers At 0740, Nagumo received the scouting report of ten enemy ships. At the same time as above, the SBD of Henderson arrived and began their attack At 0810, the fifteen B-17's attacked the Japanese carriers. At 0820, Nagumo received a further report of a carrier - remember there were not supposed to be any US carriers in the area, they were supposed to be in Pearl Harbor. At 0825, the Hornet's torpedo bomber squadron turns north and finds the Japanese carriers Soon after this, a couple of minutes later, the TBD's of Enterprise start their attack At 0850, Tomonaga's Midway attack force begins to arrive at the carriers for recovery At 0945, Enterprise's SBD's turn north and find the carriers.
I am presenting this timing to illustrate the situation that the Japanese now found themselves in, unexpectedly. The Japanese had no idea that we had been reading their mail and that there were so many aircraft on Midway.
Even though the attacks were not well conducted, they still created a chaotic situation that the Japanese leaders were not prepared for. Even though the mission to discover the carriers in Pearl and the submarines deployment was late, they still assumed we had no idea they were coming and were prepared. They assumed that the carriers were still in Pearl. Within a two hour and 45 minute period, they were under almost constant attacks and had to somehow get their Midway group landed. They were not prepared for this. The Japanese navy had never experienced this sort of situation and had never trained for it. They forgot that the enemy always has a say in your plan and that no plan survives contact with the enemy.
This is why I call this whole time period, chaotic.
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