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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 14:45:46 GMT -6
Another one of the old guy's idea's. It ain't so crazy because the British actually did this with many of their cruisers. The cruisers, in peacetime would carry about 100 round for each main gun, but when a conflict started, an extra 50 rnds was designated for each ship in a port where they were parked. I think this is neat idea and it could be done automatically. If you build a cruiser or any ship for that matter, you get an extra 50 rounds if you enter a conflict. Just another idea to move closer to real historical simulation.
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Post by seawolf on Apr 13, 2020 14:50:49 GMT -6
Another one of the old guy's idea's. It ain't so crazy because the British actually did this with many of their cruisers. The cruisers, in peacetime would carry about 100 round for each main gun, but when a conflict started, an extra 50 rnds was designated for each ship in a port where they were parked. I think this is neat idea and it could be done automatically. If you build a cruiser or any ship for that matter, you get an extra 50 rounds if you enter a conflict. Just another idea to move closer to real historical simulation. I don't think this was carrying over the magazine capacity in wartime, but rather carrying under the magazine capacity in peacetime. You're not choosing the number of rounds on board, you're choosing the magazine capacity, which is constant without rebuilding it. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 15:07:22 GMT -6
Another one of the old guy's idea's. It ain't so crazy because the British actually did this with many of their cruisers. The cruisers, in peacetime would carry about 100 round for each main gun, but when a conflict started, an extra 50 rnds was designated for each ship in a port where they were parked. I think this is neat idea and it could be done automatically. If you build a cruiser or any ship for that matter, you get an extra 50 rounds if you enter a conflict. Just another idea to move closer to real historical simulation. I don't think this was carrying over the magazine capacity in wartime, but rather carrying under the magazine capacity in peacetime. You're not choosing the number of rounds on board, you're choosing the magazine capacity, which is constant without rebuilding it. This issue then needs to be clarified. If I allocate 200 rounds per gun, then the ship will be constructed to carry just that amount. If that is true, then an additional 50 could be added for each gun without a problem. It is important, in the construction cost and weight limits of the ship. I would also request an ammunition load per light, medium and heavy AA guns. Some AA guns like the .50 cal. or 20 mm or 40 mm depending on the number of barrels could fire at 200 rounds per minute. If I have four barrels on one mount and two mounts, then that is about 800 rounds per mount and with two mounts, that 1600 rounds in one minute. Anti-aircraft defense takes far longer than one minute. A 2-pdr QF guns or 40 mm. in some countries, ammunition round weighs 2.95 lbs. so 2.95 times 800 rounds weighs about almost one ton. Check my math guys with Navweaps data. But you see the issue. There are weight issues with ammunition. |
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Post by seawolf on Apr 13, 2020 15:29:28 GMT -6
I don't think this was carrying over the magazine capacity in wartime, but rather carrying under the magazine capacity in peacetime. You're not choosing the number of rounds on board, you're choosing the magazine capacity, which is constant without rebuilding it. This issue then needs to be clarified. If I allocate 200 rounds per gun, then the ship will be constructed to carry just that amount. If that is true, then an additional 50 could be added for each gun without a problem. It is important, in the construction cost and weight limits of the ship. I would also request an ammunition load per light, medium and heavy AA guns. Some AA guns like the .50 cal. or 20 mm or 40 mm depending on the number of barrels could fire at 200 rounds per minute. If I have four barrels on one mount and two mounts, then that is about 800 rounds per mount and with two mounts, that 1600 rounds in one minute. Anti-aircraft defense takes far longer than one minute. A 2-pdr QF guns or 40 mm. in some countries, ammunition round weighs 2.95 lbs. so 2.95 times 800 rounds weighs about almost one ton. Check my math guys with Navweaps data. But you see the issue. There are weight issues with ammunition. Where would the extra 50 rounds be stored? If the magazine holds 200 rounds per gun why would the ship be able to carry another 50? |
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Post by aeson on Apr 13, 2020 15:39:17 GMT -6
I would also request an ammunition load per light, medium and heavy AA guns. Some AA guns like the .50 cal. or 20 mm or 40 mm depending on the number of barrels could fire at 200 rounds per minute. If I have four barrels on one mount and two mounts, then that is about 800 rounds per mount and with two mounts, that 1600 rounds in one minute. Anti-aircraft defense takes far longer than one minute. A 2-pdr QF guns or 40 mm. in some countries, ammunition round weighs 2.95 lbs. so 2.95 times 800 rounds weighs about almost one ton. Check my math guys with Navweaps data. But you see the issue. There are weight issues with ammunition. Ammunition for secondary, tertiary, medium AA, and light AA guns is abstracted into the tonnage cost of fitting the weapons, and at least for secondary and tertiary guns is limited in battle. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 15:41:59 GMT -6
I would also request an ammunition load per light, medium and heavy AA guns. Some AA guns like the .50 cal. or 20 mm or 40 mm depending on the number of barrels could fire at 200 rounds per minute. If I have four barrels on one mount and two mounts, then that is about 800 rounds per mount and with two mounts, that 1600 rounds in one minute. Anti-aircraft defense takes far longer than one minute. A 2-pdr QF guns or 40 mm. in some countries, ammunition round weighs 2.95 lbs. so 2.95 times 800 rounds weighs about almost one ton. Check my math guys with Navweaps data. But you see the issue. There are weight issues with ammunition. Ammunition for secondary, tertiary, medium AA, and light AA guns is abstracted into the tonnage cost of fitting the weapons, and at least for secondary and tertiary guns is limited in battle. Ammunition lockers on the decks near the guns. The guns would use that ammunition first, then the ammunition would arrive at the gun in the normal manner. The lockers would be anchored to the decks but not necessarily used all the time. There could be many spots for excess ammunition. |
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Post by seawolf on Apr 13, 2020 16:24:40 GMT -6
Ammunition for secondary, tertiary, medium AA, and light AA guns is abstracted into the tonnage cost of fitting the weapons, and at least for secondary and tertiary guns is limited in battle. Ammunition lockers on the decks near the guns. The guns would use that ammunition first, then the ammunition would arrive at the gun in the normal manner. The lockers would be anchored to the decks but not necessarily used all the time. There could be many spots for excess ammunition. Is this only for AA weapons and small secondaries? Even then that seems like a horrible way to allow flash fires on deck if its more than a few rounds. |
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Post by seawolf on Apr 13, 2020 16:34:18 GMT -6
The smallest magazine capacity of British WW2 cruisers was 125 rounds (York had 175) per gun, so in any case the cruisers were carrying well under their designed capacity(100 peacetime 106-7 wartime), so it wouldn't make sense in game to represent it as them carrying additional rounds.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 16:41:36 GMT -6
I am not trying to convince anyone, Leave it the way it is. We are done.
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Post by seawolf on Apr 13, 2020 17:45:21 GMT -6
I am not trying to convince anyone, Leave it the way it is. We are done. I mean its really interesting and I did some research but I can't find anything about carrying naval artillery shells in deck ammunition lockers. If you have anything I can read I'd appreciate it |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 13, 2020 17:54:55 GMT -6
I am not trying to convince anyone, Leave it the way it is. We are done. I mean its really interesting and I did some research but I can't find anything about carrying naval artillery shells in deck ammunition lockers. If you have anything I can read I'd appreciate it Here is a picture of two ammunition lockers  The guns are 3 inch 50 caliber. These are typical but they can be bigger if needed. www.usskidd.com/ship-tour/the-40mm-gun-mounts/ |
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 14, 2020 6:20:33 GMT -6
Turrets with integral hoists tended to have some ready or emergency rounds at hand in the turrets themselves, and those guns without integral hoists (most but not all pedestal, casemate and secondary AA guns) needed ready stores in vicinity of the guns as the ammo supply chain was more difficult and usually came to sailors manhandling shells on the decks. That being said, an oversupply of 50 rounds per gun is so substantial that IMO it needs specific reference that these were going into ammo lockers rather than into spare space in the magazines. Tangential, but it would be nice if integral hoists were a checkbox like DP is. Going without would be cheaper and lighter, but give substantially lesser ROF in long term (do the current pedestal guns with max 2" face 1" top even suffer in ROF like they should?). For example, during WW1 British Dreadnoughts did not have integral hoists for their secondaries but the German ones did. Edit: "While maintaining approximately the same cruising supply of ammunition as was provided for the Tennessee class the magazines have been so arranged as to provide sufficient space to stow about 20 per cent additional 10-inch and 6-inch ammunition at time of war." books.google.fi/books?id=y-s9AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Ammunition&f=false Magazine undersupply in peace was a thing at least. Queen Elizabeth and Royal Sovereign classes apparently had 30 rounds of ready 6" ammunition per gun: www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-45_mk12.php |
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 14, 2020 15:50:20 GMT -6
My question here is what sort of gameplay effect this would have. The ammunition supply for a ship, in game, is only relevant in wartime, so I don't see any need to distinguish between war and peace. About the only case where I could imagine this being relevant is for the defending side in surprise attacks, but is it worth it to special case the defender's ammunition supply for one battle per war, and not even every war?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 14, 2020 16:01:25 GMT -6
My question here is what sort of gameplay effect this would have. The ammunition supply for a ship, in game, is only relevant in wartime, so I don't see any need to distinguish between war and peace. About the only case where I could imagine this being relevant is for the defending side in surprise attacks, but is it worth it to special case the defender's ammunition supply for one battle per war, and not even every war? In my game play, I build ships with at least 150 rounds main gun ammunition, an I don't run out. When the AI builds it, it only puts about 90 and then I run out. I don't like to run out and I find I have more success with extra rounds. |
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