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Post by deadmetal on Apr 15, 2020 17:01:36 GMT -6
It actually baffles me, why in a supposedly ultra realistic 2D game / simulator, ship RoF is so far off from reality. Also, how is it still not corrected? Besides the fact that it's evidently too low, there are quite a few complaints about it. To not make it a lengthy rant post, I'll just end it with a link to another post for people who want to read about it. Also, I'll add that making a realistic autoloader working speed alone won't correct the problem. Manual reloads are too slow as well. nws-online.proboards.com/thread/3376/change-autoloader-effect
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Post by seawolf on Apr 15, 2020 18:05:43 GMT -6
It actually baffles me, why in a supposedly ultra realistic 2D game / simulator, ship RoF is so far off from reality. Also, how is it still not corrected? Besides the fact that it's evidently too low, there are quite a few complaints about it. To not make it a lengthy rant post, I'll just end it with a link to another post for people who want to read about it. Also, I'll add that making a realistic autoloader working speed alone won't correct the problem. Manual reloads are too slow as well. nws-online.proboards.com/thread/3376/change-autoloader-effectIn real life, RoF in combat is much lower than RoF in a firing exercise or test. Its quite hard to maintain rapid fire against a moving target, even if your ship isn't under fire. There are many things you have to take into account: Shell Flight Times, sometimes you don't want to fire until your previous shell has landed, Turret Traverse times to point at the target, Gun Elevation times to aim the barrel between reloads, and to a lesser extent: Simple Errors by the gun crews Confusion fire control orders Simple conservation of ammunition The game arbitrates all of this into a lower base RoF. From what I've read RTW doesn't seem too inaccurate compared to combat, only to firing exercises.
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Post by deadmetal on Apr 15, 2020 19:42:22 GMT -6
Ok, a question then, how many times per minute, would you expect a poorly trained crew to reload a 3" gun (a shell of which weights only 15 pounds - so little you can hold it in one hand) in battle conditions? Certainly more than just a little over 3 times per minute, right? Well it's 3.125 times per minute, or once every 19.2 seconds in game. You're telling me a crew would actually take 20 seconds to reload and fire their very small caliber naval gun, at medium or close range, when it's of outmost importance that they put as many rounds on an enemy ship per given time as possible, because if they won't - each slow reload might be their last one!
To your arguments:
1. Regarding accuracy problems and wanting to fire after a shell has landed - can be done by extending a RoF a given amount of time (or until a shell hits water), only when there are more misses than it is accepted, or when the target isn't yet straddled properly - to simulate waiting for the splash and adjusting before each shot. But even then, in an average engagement with this mechanic at work, I don't think that RoF would be as low as it currently is in the game.
2. Turret traverse and elevation - takes negligible time if the gun is of a small caliber, but also, could be simulated.
3. Crew errors would result in an irregular RoF, which could have been simulated with no additional calculations, except an additional dice roll, so evidently, it's not the case here.
4. Confusion - same as above, but perhaps some additional conditions.
5. Conservation of ammunition should not be in effect when the mags are near full an the main goal is to make as much damage to the enemy ships per given time as possible. Ammo conservation could become in effect only with half empty or near empty mags, or it could be for the player to decide (in doctrine window for example).
So ultimately, even when considering all the reasons you have mentioned, at least in my opinion, the RoF should not be so low. What's more, it's much more restricted for small caliber guns than it is for large caliber for some reason.
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Post by seawolf on Apr 15, 2020 19:55:39 GMT -6
I was mainly thinking about medium and large caliber guns, but if small caliber guns are limited to 3 rpm than you're right, it should be closer to a max of 10 rpm.
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Post by deadmetal on Apr 15, 2020 20:32:09 GMT -6
I was mainly thinking about medium and large caliber guns, but if small caliber guns are limited to 3 rpm than you're right, it should be closer to a max of 10 rpm. Exactly. Just how unrealistic is that? The problem is not only realism but also the fact that because of very low RoF, small guns don't have their main advantage over large guns, which is of course high RoF, and are therefore s*** in game. Every calibers RoF is limited considerably, but again, the smaller the caliber, the more it's limited for some reason, and even to a point of ridiculousness. Look at the RoF table here rtw2.fandom.com/wiki/Guns and divide their given RoF by 8 to get rounds per minute. One more detail, I've read a post about someone wanting to fix the slow RoF of small guns with a mod, but apparently not able to as again, for some reason, there's a hardcoded RoF limit of 32, which translates to only 4 rounds per minute, even for the 2 inch guns. It seriously baffles me how this hasn't been fixed yet. Being conservative about unit specs in your historical game is one thing, if such is ones preference, but making them so s****y is another thing and it's reducing both, your games fun factor and its realism. Here's the post. nws-online.proboards.com/thread/3720/rate-fire-any-gun-capped- edit: Actually even your suggested 10 rounds per minute seems too conservative to me, for 2 inch and 3 inch guns, but even it would mean that they would fire 3 times more quickly than they currently are able to.
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Post by christian on Apr 16, 2020 2:53:58 GMT -6
I was mainly thinking about medium and large caliber guns, but if small caliber guns are limited to 3 rpm than you're right, it should be closer to a max of 10 rpm. all guns in game are limited to 4 rate of fire (i added a modding suggestion under the mods tab where i ask for the limit to be upped and also proof the 4 rof limit is a thing) which means a 2 inch gun in 1950 will still not fire faster than 4 rof and from personally loading and unloading a 37mm gun with a dummy round i could probably achieve atleast 10 rounds a minute while also having to unload it again you would have to be A dumb and not know how a gun works or B have 2 broken hands and need to load without using hands and considering this is trained naval crew they A are on a hospital ship with those 2 broken hands or are about to get thrown overboard also yes while there are alot of penalties this usually means rof is below 3 rounds per minute FOR 4-5 INCH GUNS IN 1940 due to penalties often being from 20-50% rate of fire in real life the uss washington managed to fire 1.7 rounds per minute at a battle range of around 15k yards against the IJN kirishima with 16 inch guns in ww2 most 3-5 inch guns had rates of fire ABOVE 10 rounds per minute in ww1 these were around 7-10 with 6 inch guns that dropped to 8-10 and for ww1 guns around 5-7 in game you cant even achieve this rate of fire IN PERFECT CONDITIONS WITH AN ACED CREW it is quite literally impossible i would have no problem if they kept the rate of fire as it is BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE MODDERS ABLE TO MOD ROF ABOVE 4
while yes rate of fire was SLIGHTLY lower in combat than in firing excercises remember in firing excercises they are doing exactly that firing excercises they are aiming at a target and trying to obtain as high firerate AND accuracy as they can they arent just shooting shells blindly to get high firerates and flex on others as seen with uss washington her first engage she manages a rate of fire of 1.7 and second time 1.6 www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdfbut firerate was not 50% of what it was in excercises during combat when a 16 inch gun quite literally cannot go beyond 1 rate of fire in game something starts to feel wrong if you start looking at combat reports you very quickly see that their actual rate of fire was not much lower than the ones in excercises and as also seen she could fire her 16 inch guns quite fast "At 0020 South Dakota fires her third main battery salvo at Shikinami, range 16,100 yards spot U-400 and reports hearing many Japanese voice transmissions. At this point Capt. Gatch orders an increase in speed to 23 knots. At 0020.42 South Dakota fires her fourth main battery"and again "0043.15 Eighteenth salvo, range 15,800. No spot. 0043.40 Nineteenth salvo, range 16,100, Spot
U-200. At 0045 South Dakota reports main battery ceased firing. "42 second delay between a salvoes (U-400 means up 400 yard D- number means down x yards its firecontrol corrections basically) www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Battleship_Action_Guadalcanal.pdfit is also worth noting that this was a night battle and targets had a tendancy to dissapear off the radar thus as the american battleships were firing by radar ONLY it is likely that the rate of fire is slower than it could have been as targets were popping on and off the radar we can also see the secondaries rate of fire here "At 0106 Fire Control reported that the forward group (forward main battery turrets) was getting to its limit of train (148 degrees). At 0107 Cease Firing. Main battery target burning, and heading away. Enemy BB ceased firing. Washington fired an additional 36 main battery shells for a total of 75 16-inch AP shells. Her secondary battery fired a total of 227 5-inch AA common shells during this phase."in the short span of a singular minute the 5x2 secondaries on uss washington managed to fire 227 rounds as the secondary battery has a total of 10 barrels (one side of the secondary battery firing on kirishima) they managed to fire 227 rounds within a minute which is 11 rounds per barrel fired IN A MINUTE in short washington showed that the 5"38 even in combat conditions could achieve over 11 rounds per minute (227 rounds fired over the duration of 2 minutes)and the main battery firing 36 rounds within 2 minutes (2 rounds per minute per gun) and this is not even diving into what 1945-1950 guns could do with des moines guns doing 10 rounds per minute which WAS NOT effected by crew skill or anything the like as they were autoloaders and not even to mention the 3 inch gun on the des moines which had a rate of fire in peak conditions (good crew) of 60 per gun and 50 rpm with a normal/decent crew) 1950s weapons very quickly became aircraft swatters and were able to put out an insane amount of firepower in a very very short amount of time as seen with kirishima she had her fate sealed WITHIN 7 MINUTES which is practically impossible in game (identification takes longer than that) and within those 7 minutes (0100 to 0107) she had taken 20 16" hits time to kill for ww2 ships when they came into close quarters combat (within 15k yards) was extremely short also i feel its worth mentioning the russian 57mm quad mount (was used as main armament for a russian dd) with a godly rate of fire of 100 rounds per minute www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_57mm-81_zif-71_Kanin_pic.jpgwww.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_57mm-81_zif-71.php
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Post by deadmetal on Apr 16, 2020 6:06:34 GMT -6
i would have no problem if they kept the rate of fire as it is BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE MODDERS ABLE TO MOD ROF ABOVE 4 Exactly, why hardcode stuff into your exe file and then discourage everyone from modifying it as doing so might invalidate your license? What a load of bs is that, in a 2D simulator game costing 35 euros? Why not let people fix your mistakes and improve the game for you? Why not let people make their customizations to your game and enjoy it more and for longer? Yeah, it's a bit mind boggling. Very good points and detailed historic examples Christian, but make a guess if the devs are going to consider any of it.
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Post by wlbjork on Apr 16, 2020 6:47:34 GMT -6
if you start looking at combat reports you very quickly see that their actual rate of fire was not much lower than the ones in excercises and as also seen she could fire her 16 inch guns quite fast "At 0020 South Dakota fires her third main battery salvo at Shikinami, range 16,100 yards spot U-400 and reports hearing many Japanese voice transmissions. At this point Capt. Gatch orders an increase in speed to 23 knots. At 0020.42 South Dakota fires her fourth main battery"and again "0043.15 Eighteenth salvo, range 15,800. No spot. 0043.40 Nineteenth salvo, range 16,100, Spot
U-200. At 0045 South Dakota reports main battery ceased firing. "42 second delay between a salvoes (U-400 means up 400 yard D- number means down x yards its firecontrol corrections basically) www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Battleship_Action_Guadalcanal.pdfit is also worth noting that this was a night battle and targets had a tendancy to dissapear off the radar thus as the american battleships were firing by radar ONLY it is likely that the rate of fire is slower than it could have been as targets were popping on and off the radar I'll just nit-pick a little here: If salvo 3 is fired at 0020.00 and salvo 19 is fired at 0043.40, then that is 16 salvos fired in 23 mins 40 seconds, which is a sustained rate of 1 salvo every 1m 28.75s Overall though, I agree that many guns could do with a RoF boost. Some of the guns a basic BL version can be loaded and fired faster, never mind the QF variations.
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Post by christian on Apr 16, 2020 7:48:40 GMT -6
if you start looking at combat reports you very quickly see that their actual rate of fire was not much lower than the ones in excercises and as also seen she could fire her 16 inch guns quite fast "At 0020 South Dakota fires her third main battery salvo at Shikinami, range 16,100 yards spot U-400 and reports hearing many Japanese voice transmissions. At this point Capt. Gatch orders an increase in speed to 23 knots. At 0020.42 South Dakota fires her fourth main battery"and again "0043.15 Eighteenth salvo, range 15,800. No spot. 0043.40 Nineteenth salvo, range 16,100, Spot
U-200. At 0045 South Dakota reports main battery ceased firing. "42 second delay between a salvoes (U-400 means up 400 yard D- number means down x yards its firecontrol corrections basically) www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Battleship_Action_Guadalcanal.pdfit is also worth noting that this was a night battle and targets had a tendancy to dissapear off the radar thus as the american battleships were firing by radar ONLY it is likely that the rate of fire is slower than it could have been as targets were popping on and off the radar I'll just nit-pick a little here: If salvo 3 is fired at 0020.00 and salvo 19 is fired at 0043.40, then that is 16 salvos fired in 23 mins 40 seconds, which is a sustained rate of 1 salvo every 1m 28.75s Overall though, I agree that many guns could do with a RoF boost. Some of the guns a basic BL version can be loaded and fired faster, never mind the QF variations. shes fired her fourth salvo at 0020.42 and the first salvo is fired at 0020 that is a 42 second duration also do keep in mind as i said she was not able to engage targets for the intire duration its also worth mentioning she had an electrical breakdown which shut her down for a while and did not enable her to effectively act in combat (and most likely could have doomed her or atleast put her in danger against kirishima as USS washington had to come in and pull its 7 minutes of glory and sink kirishima) and the Japanese ships often popped smoke when fired at giving the illusion of a sunken ship when the smoke was seen from searchlights and the radar loosing tracking often did not help (this also meant there were short minute periods she could and could not fire and japanese ships disengaging after seeing it was a battleship also meant she couldnt keep target for long) and much like whats seen with washington they did not always open fire with the main battery kongo was hit and broke off and washington ceased fire for the second time she picked up kirishima a few minutes later but did not fire once again same with south dakota she fired a few salvoes and then ceased after the target maneuvered or popped a smoke
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Post by seawolf on Apr 16, 2020 11:46:37 GMT -6
I’m pretty sure the limit exists not due to any wish to hardcode it, but because of the games limit on simulating shellfire. There seems to be a hard limit of 30 guns firing that the game faces errors above, for a single battery, so I would assume there’s a limit on number of shells too
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Post by rimbecano on Apr 16, 2020 16:36:35 GMT -6
"At 0106 Fire Control reported that the forward group (forward main battery turrets) was getting to its limit of train (148 degrees). At 0107 Cease Firing. Main battery target burning, and heading away. Enemy BB ceased firing. Washington fired an additional 36 main battery shells for a total of 75 16-inch AP shells. Her secondary battery fired a total of 227 5-inch AA common shells during this phase."in the short span of a singular minute the 5x2 secondaries on uss washington managed to fire 227 rounds as the secondary battery has a total of 10 barrels (one side of the secondary battery firing on kirishima) they managed to fire 227 rounds within a minute which is 22,7 rounds per barrel fired IN A MINUTE No it's not. Note that it says " in this phase." "This phase" probably refers to the "On board Washington" section of the text that this appears in, so from 100 to the cessation of fire at 107, which means it comes out to just over 3 rpb/minute. But generally speaking, I do agree that the ROFs, for small guns especially, seem low.
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Post by christian on Apr 17, 2020 4:10:30 GMT -6
"At 0106 Fire Control reported that the forward group (forward main battery turrets) was getting to its limit of train (148 degrees). At 0107 Cease Firing. Main battery target burning, and heading away. Enemy BB ceased firing. Washington fired an additional 36 main battery shells for a total of 75 16-inch AP shells. Her secondary battery fired a total of 227 5-inch AA common shells during this phase."in the short span of a singular minute the 5x2 secondaries on uss washington managed to fire 227 rounds as the secondary battery has a total of 10 barrels (one side of the secondary battery firing on kirishima) they managed to fire 227 rounds within a minute which is 22,7 rounds per barrel fired IN A MINUTE No it's not. Note that it says " in this phase." "This phase" probably refers to the "On board Washington" section of the text that this appears in, so from 100 to the cessation of fire at 107, which means it comes out to just over 3 rpb/minute. But generally speaking, I do agree that the ROFs, for small guns especially, seem low. it is worth noting that washington had ceased fire after the first firing and resumed fire at 0104 so "this phase" most likely refers to 0104 to 0107 this most probably also means the 36 shells were fired from 104 to 107 which means a rate of fire of i believe around 1.6 though we have no precise time on main battery firing to cease firing it could be that the cease fire order was given as they were about to be reloaded and thus the rof might look worse than it was still means the 5 inch secondaries had 7.5 rounds per minute
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