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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2020 13:43:13 GMT -6
I am beginning to play nations but in the experimental ship building mode. I will build ships over time, with different configurations and anyone can use them. I will play the game to a point, then resign and start over. I will play every available nation. I am going to examine their historical navies and geography as well. I will be fighting more wars and more fleet exercises to test these ships. This is my favorite activity and here it goes. I welcome any ideas, criticisms or your own ships. My first experiment is with Germany in 1900, building an armored cruiser, lightly armored and fast for a raider mission. This was the concept with Plan Z for the Germans. I am just doing it earlier. All the other ships will be standard. I am only going upload pictures of my experimental ships. I may transfer my game design to Springsharp and add them, I haven't made that decision.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 14:37:09 GMT -6
4000t crusier will do the same, just put some 6" guns on that, reliable engine, long range and mines, later plane. This thing just cost too much
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2020 14:50:27 GMT -6
4000t crusier will do the same, just put some 6" guns on that, reliable engine, long range and mines. This thing just cost too much I have designed a light cruiser based on your suggestions - You suggestion does make for a cheaper ship, 27,180 versus 53769. Now, is the armored cruiser sturdier, and better equipped to deal with bigger ships that might just be in the area of the convoy or transports. That is the question. The armored cruiser has the same speed, but heavier guns, heavier armor, and heavier secondary guns. Examine each parameter carefully and remember that a ship is system. The German z plan eventually decided that bigger ships like the Scharnhorst and Bismarck's had better chances of survival than the pocket battleships. This about how many ships, the British Navy had to use to sink Bismarck?
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 15:02:42 GMT -6
Put all armor on 1, turret armor to 0 there is no need for it on raider. Oh and engine priority definitely need to be reliable or at least normal otherwise they get interned or even worse - scuttled. Gun caliber, mines, plane and I guess range for raiding, speed for running away. No idea if torpedoes help
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2020 15:26:03 GMT -6
Put all armor on 1, turret armor to 0 there is no need for it on raider. Oh and engine priority definitely need to be reliable or at least normal otherwise they get interned or even worse - scuttled. Gun caliber, mines, plane and I guess range for raiding, speed for running away. No idea if torpedoes help Ok, here is the result. The ship is over weight based on your suggestions. Examine and make sure I didn't make any mistakes.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 15:47:01 GMT -6
Put all armor on 1, turret armor to 0 there is no need for it on raider. Oh and engine priority definitely need to be reliable or at least normal otherwise they get interned or even worse - scuttled. Gun caliber, mines, plane and I guess range for raiding, speed for running away. No idea if torpedoes help Ok, here is the result. The ship is over weight based on your suggestions. Examine and make sure I didn't make any mistakes.You can put turret armor to zero and increase displacement and keep some free space later for mines You can put turret armor to zero and increase displacement and keep some free space later for mines. OH, maybe you can even slap some 8" single turret on it.
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w2c
Full Member
Posts: 178
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Post by w2c on Apr 26, 2020 15:48:30 GMT -6
Put all armor on 1, turret armor to 0 there is no need for it on raider. Oh and engine priority definitely need to be reliable or at least normal otherwise they get interned or even worse - scuttled. Gun caliber, mines, plane and I guess range for raiding, speed for running away. No idea if torpedoes help Ok, here is the result. The ship is over weight based on your suggestions. Examine and make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Didn't he originally suggest 4k ton though? This one is 3400 and the one you did before that was 6000. How overweight would it be with an actual 4k displacement?
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 15:52:46 GMT -6
Ok, here is the result. The ship is over weight based on your suggestions. Examine and make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Didn't he originally suggest 4k ton though? This one is 3400 and the one you did before that was 6000. How overweight would it be with an actual 4k displacement? I dont really have raider ship design for every year/tech level in my head. Never built raiders in 1900
BUT there is no need for them to be expensive or built to fight other warships
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w2c
Full Member
Posts: 178
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Post by w2c on Apr 26, 2020 15:56:48 GMT -6
Didn't he originally suggest 4k ton though? This one is 3400 and the one you did before that was 6000. How overweight would it be with an actual 4k displacement? I dont really have raider ship design for every year/tech level in my head. Never built raiders in 1900
BUT there is no need for them to be expensive or built to fight other warships
Yeah I know. I was just kinda curious how it would turn out. I mean I could obviously load up the game and check myself but I'm kinda liking being able to see others processes and such. I was just confused why he went to 3400 for the second one. His first one was bigger than your request but I figured he wanted to overpower it a bit over your specs but figured when he reduced it he'd aim for closer to 4k especially as it turned out to be about 600 overweight. I figure I might just be missing something so asked.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2020 15:57:28 GMT -6
Didn't he originally suggest 4k ton though? This one is 3400 and the one you did before that was 6000. How overweight would it be with an actual 4k displacement? I dont really have raider ship design for every year/tech level in my head. Never built raiders in 1900
BUT there is no need for them to be expensive or built to fight other warships
You cannot predict, who your raider will meet if it goes after a single ship or a convoy. There might be an enemy naval squadron nearby who might come to the rescue. The bigger guns give you more range to stay out of the return fire. I would not waste torpedoes on transports. That having been said, my usual choice for Guerre de Course is the submarine, not a surface raider. But my design is meant to be flexible, used in the fleet if need be, colonial service or as a raider. That is my simple goal. As to expenses, it goes with the territory. Navy's are expensive, its cost per performance.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 16:09:33 GMT -6
You are overthinking it. This comes from my own experience and from info I collected from various people on discord who done some tests. Raiders never fight any raiding battle, they just sink merchant ships and you can see their success rate at the start of the turn ...thats all. Now their success rate depend on what I said earlier -Gun caliber, mines, plane and I guess range for raiding -I have no idea how game is calculating any of this, only thing I know is that it just roll a dice every turn to see if your raider gets interned or scuttled
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 26, 2020 16:22:11 GMT -6
I dont really have raider ship design for every year/tech level in my head. Never built raiders in 1900
BUT there is no need for them to be expensive or built to fight other warships
You cannot predict, who your raider will meet if it goes after a single ship or a convoy. There might be an enemy naval squadron nearby who might come to the rescue. The bigger guns give you more range to stay out of the return fire. I would not waste torpedoes on transports. That having been said, my usual choice for Guerre de Course is the submarine, not a surface raider. But my design is meant to be flexible, used in the fleet if need be, colonial service or as a raider. That is my simple goal. As to expenses, it goes with the territory. Navy's are expensive, its cost per performance. In general, I caution against building raiders of any sort. You make them cheap and cheerful 4000 tonners with no armour which is great.... until they end up in a proper battle. Or raider interception. Or a submarine attack. Then their crews may as well have the life rafts swung out in preparation. It may be tempting to build a cruiser for raiding but it's still a cruiser that takes over a year and a half to build. And VP gained from a few merchant kills is uuncomfortably small compared with the loss when losing that cruiser. If you are going for the kill merchant approach, submarines are infinitely better. I only ever use clapped-out cruisers for raiding which I'm not quite confident enough to scrap but certainly don't want turning up in a battleline. Think once-refitted CLs or CAs. Those are my two pence. Having said that, if you are going full jeune ecole, I would recommend 5000t fast CLs. They should be armoured quite well (2" belt) in the structure but not in the guns with unarmoured 5" mounts (6" is overkill). Sacrifice guns for speed if necessary. These ships are relatively cheap but won't spontaneously combust in a battle or get caught by patrols. This will allow them to function in the fleet if something goes horribly wrong with your main units (and you do need main units). They also make great colonial gunboats. In summary, submarines are always more effective but if you insist raiders must be able to fight their own class in a battle without relying solely upon miracles.
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Post by griffin01 on Apr 26, 2020 16:22:37 GMT -6
That is not how it always was, even if it is true, and probably not how it always be. If raiders don't fight any interception battles, then it is probably unintended and will be fixed at some point. Therefore it might be prudent to plan ahead with design ideas. Edit: I was referring to what geroj said.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2020 16:25:26 GMT -6
That is not how it always was, even if it is true, and probably not how it always be. If raiders don't fight any interception battles, then it is probably unintended and will be fixed at some point. Therefore it might be prudent to plan ahead with design ideas. There is no doubt but two World Wars confirm what I believe. However, there is the path not taken. Things can be and might be different, there is no doubt. However, you must consider who your opponents are, where they sit geographically and what is the level of their trade requirements. The answer to all these questions is exactly why Naval War colleges play war games initially on tables and now on computers. To assess requirements based on possibilities. These requirements based on gaming, and results, provided the specifications for naval ships and for doctrine.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Apr 26, 2020 16:38:01 GMT -6
That is not how it always was, even if it is true, and probably not how it always be. If raiders don't fight any interception battles, then it is probably unintended and will be fixed at some point. Therefore it might be prudent to plan ahead with design ideas. Edit: I was referring to what geroj said. They do fight interception battles, but merchant sinking is auto calculated
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