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Post by hawkeye on Apr 27, 2020 10:20:25 GMT -6
Hm, interesting design but nothing I would ever use, for three reasons. 1. Much too expensive for a 1900 B (my goal is to not go much above 50 Millions, especially as I mostly play small-fleet games) 2. Pursuit in large engagements isn't a thing I encounter often, at least not in the early game, where I just hurl a group of DD over the flank ahead of the enemy, then pull them in towards the enemy and so force him to turn back towards my battle-line. 3. Where pursuit _does_ happen is cruiser engagements, but that B will hardly ever be put in a cruiser engagement by the battle generator, so that's also a moot point. As I said, it's an interesting design, but personally: Thanks, but no thanks P.s. My CAs are designed to take part in fleet engagements, which also means they can usually take on the AI's CAs without much of a problem. I'm not much of a CL fan and the few I have are usually put on TP in a war, which means: Cruiser Engagement? My CAs vs. either the AI's CAs or, even better, CLs. Medium Coastal Raid? Again, with no CLs, it'll be my CAs against whatever cruisers the AI fields. And if my CAs, once in a while, _are_ thrown into an engagement with Bs, they have the speed to disengage. Yes, I'm kinda gaming the system (i.e. the Battle Generator), but hey, I use what is given to me P.p.s. Also, as soon as medium wing turrets are researched, I build a couple of semi-heavy cruisers (12 x 9" guns in hexagonal twin-turrets, 16k tons (so they can be converted to CVLs later on), 23 knots) which will eat 98% of the AI's CA for lunch and set AI Bs on fire like there is no tomorrow
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 10:55:51 GMT -6
I know some of you don't agree with my ship design or reasoning. Good, that's what I am trying to accomplish. Simulations like this are good for testing the what-if ideas. The world, like biological evolution, tends to follow certain paths that it can't really reverse. There can be opportunities by other designs, species, to take advantage of niches that the main path doesn't deal well with. Yes and that is why I like to do this. I will pick different countries and the two different time periods, then experiment. discussions like we engaged in on this thread are close to the discussions in Royal Navy with the DNC and First Sea lord along with the design teams. Same with the US General board and the CINCUS. Its great. I welcome any suggestions as to a configuration for a type of ship. I am retired and have been for 18 years. I have plenty of time to play and try things. I going to transfer my raider design to a Springsharp design today.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 14:37:24 GMT -6
My next experiment to use the ideas of many of you, and mine. I am going to play Italy and build three large armored cruisers as raiders and three light cruisers as raiders. We will see which ones do the best work and survive.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 15:41:56 GMT -6
I started another game, this time as Italy. I built four armored cruisers as per my specification and four light cruisers based on the specifications of you. I ran my first exercise with one armored cruiser versus two light cruisers. All were raiders. Here are the results. It mostly a tail chase, but interesting. Did it prove anything, I am not certain other than one armored cruiser can damage two light cruisers, but we knew that. More to come.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 15:57:18 GMT -6
This second exercise was conducted with one light cruiser raider and three destroyers. Here are the results. The light cruiser was sunk by torpedoes. I am later today, going to run a third exercise with one armored cruiser against three destroyers.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 16:17:09 GMT -6
This is the third exercise, one armored cruisers raider versus three destroyers. Results: Two destroyers sunk, one damaged and the armored cruiser had no damage. Just a brief note: I chose this configuration for the enemy based on the concept that a raider will attack transports and convoy's. These convoy's will be protected by destroyers. How many? I don't know, it depends on the size of the convoy. So, my exercises were based on that idea.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2020 18:26:45 GMT -6
I am in a war with Russia, with France on my side. My armored cruiser raider Vettor Pisani has just sunk a russian raider the CA Bayan. That is excellent. Just what I was hoping for. Just a note: The British are on my side also, nice.
Update: AH has just come in to my side. Lookout Russia, here we come.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 28, 2020 16:37:51 GMT -6
I am playing Italy now. I am at March 1924. Italy has had two wars, I won both handily with the help of GB, and France. The last war was with German and besides the other two, I had the A-H. Seems a shame for the poor Germans but I cleaned her clock at over 8000 points to 1200 points. Now for my question but first some geography that guides my decisions in all wars.
Italy is a peninsula, that sticks out into the Mediterranean, an enclosed sea. She had Sardinia, Sicily, Libya, Rhodes and some possessions in the Indian Ocean and West Africa. Her primary area of geopolitical strength in the Med. She controls access to the Tyrrhenian Sea and access to the Eastern Mediterranean via the Straits of Sicily because of her Libyan possessions including Tunisia.
From the southern tip of Sicily to El Agheila in Libya is about 453 miles but she can have air bases at Tobruk, Benghazi, Tripoli etc. The distance from Sardinia to Rome is about 194 miles. From Rome to Sicily is about 261 miles. With Taranto in Western Italy she can control the Strait of Otranto. With Bari to A-H is about 117 miles. Enough of the Geography.
Now the $64,000 question: Why do I need to build aircraft carriers, at least fleet carriers? It seems to me that if I make speed and range a priority on my torpedo bombers, medium bombers and dive bombers, I can control an area of about 967, 787 square miles with a circumference of 3025 Nautical Miles.
One more item to consider. Carriers mobile air fields and they are very fragile. With the close distances in the area, they can be threatened and sunk easily. Talk to the British.
Any ideas, gentlemen.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 28, 2020 17:20:11 GMT -6
I am playing Italy now. I am at March 1924. Italy has had two wars, I won both handily with the help of GB, and France. The last war was with German and besides the other two, I had the A-H. Seems a shame for the poor Germans but I cleaned her clock at over 8000 points to 1200 points. Now for my question but first some geography that guides my decisions in all wars. Italy is a peninsula, that sticks out into the Mediterranean, an enclosed sea. She had Sardinia, Sicily, Libya, Rhodes and some possessions in the Indian Ocean and West Africa. Her primary area of geopolitical strength in the Med. She controls access to the Tyrrhenian Sea and access to the Eastern Mediterranean via the Straits of Sicily because of her Libyan possessions including Tunisia. From the southern tip of Sicily to El Agheila in Libya is about 453 miles but she can have air bases at Tobruk, Benghazi, Tripoli etc. The distance from Sardinia to Rome is about 194 miles. From Rome to Sicily is about 261 miles. With Taranto in Western Italy she can control the Strait of Otranto. With Bari to A-H is about 117 miles. Enough of the Geography. Now the $64,000 question: Why do I need to build aircraft carriers, at least fleet carriers? It seems to me that if I make speed and range a priority on my torpedo bombers, medium bombers and dive bombers, I can control an area of about 967, 787 square miles with a circumference of 3025 Nautical Miles. One more item to consider. Carriers mobile air fields and they are very fragile. With the close distances in the area, they can be threatened and sunk easily. Talk to the British. Any ideas, gentlemen. In real life there's no reason for Italy to have CVs. But in the game there is. From a game perspective, you don't directly control airbases. They don't fight at night and any CAP they send over your fleet is strictly time-limited. They also can't be trusted to hit the right target. So you need 2 things. CAP and intelligent strike capability. Therefore, I'd go with several light carriers loaded with fighters to deal with any enemy carrier strikes. These should be strictly escorts. The second is more optional. You could just trust in your airbases to do the strikes and save the money. I personally like the power so I'd go for several strike-priortised fleet carriers of the Pacific style (no armoured deck). You will have the air superiority 90% of the time so the fighter complement on these CVs need only be escorts (20% of the total).
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 28, 2020 17:22:16 GMT -6
I am playing Italy now. I am at March 1924. Italy has had two wars, I won both handily with the help of GB, and France. The last war was with German and besides the other two, I had the A-H. Seems a shame for the poor Germans but I cleaned her clock at over 8000 points to 1200 points. Now for my question but first some geography that guides my decisions in all wars. Italy is a peninsula, that sticks out into the Mediterranean, an enclosed sea. She had Sardinia, Sicily, Libya, Rhodes and some possessions in the Indian Ocean and West Africa. Her primary area of geopolitical strength in the Med. She controls access to the Tyrrhenian Sea and access to the Eastern Mediterranean via the Straits of Sicily because of her Libyan possessions including Tunisia. From the southern tip of Sicily to El Agheila in Libya is about 453 miles but she can have air bases at Tobruk, Benghazi, Tripoli etc. The distance from Sardinia to Rome is about 194 miles. From Rome to Sicily is about 261 miles. With Taranto in Western Italy she can control the Strait of Otranto. With Bari to A-H is about 117 miles. Enough of the Geography. Now the $64,000 question: Why do I need to build aircraft carriers, at least fleet carriers? It seems to me that if I make speed and range a priority on my torpedo bombers, medium bombers and dive bombers, I can control an area of about 967, 787 square miles with a circumference of 3025 Nautical Miles. One more item to consider. Carriers mobile air fields and they are very fragile. With the close distances in the area, they can be threatened and sunk easily. Talk to the British. Any ideas, gentlemen. In real life there's no reason for Italy to have CVs. But in the game there is. From a game perspective, you don't directly control airbases. They don't fight at night and any CAP they send over your fleet is strictly time-limited. They also can't be trusted to hit the right target. So you need 2 things. CAP and intelligent strike capability. Therefore, I'd go with several light carriers loaded with fighters to deal with any enemy carrier strikes. These should be strictly escorts. The second is more optional. You could just trust in your airbases to do the strikes and save the money. I personally like the power so I'd go for several strike-priortised fleet carriers of the Pacific style (no armoured deck). You will have the air superiority 90% of the time so the fighter complement on these CVs need only be escorts (20% of the total). Interesting idea and I will consider it. Hmmm! I like the light carriers, I was considering that option.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 28, 2020 17:36:17 GMT -6
Here is an example of the light carrier I want to build. It is not legal yet, but I am getting there.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 28, 2020 17:45:29 GMT -6
Here is an example of the light carrier I want to build. It is not legal yet, but I am getting there. View Attachment Should be good, though I'd make sure you max out the AA. 15000t ships can be uncomfortably large targets. 12000t is about my normal size for CVLs
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 28, 2020 17:48:06 GMT -6
Here is an example of the light carrier I want to build. It is not legal yet, but I am getting there. Should be good, though I'd make sure you max out the AA. 15000t ships can be uncomfortably large targets. 12000t is about my normal size for CVLs I will ensure that will be done. I want this light carrier both heavily armored and well protected by AAA.
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Post by aeson on Apr 28, 2020 17:54:19 GMT -6
Why do you need to build aircraft carriers? You don't, technically.
Why should you build aircraft carriers? Because while Italy is pretty well positioned to dominate the Central Mediterranean and especially the Adriatic with air power, its ability to project land-based air power into the Eastern and Western reaches of the Mediterranean is limited without taking additional colonies, especially earlier in the game while aircraft ranges are relatively short even with Range as the top priority - and if you plan to get around that with medium bombers and flying boats, remember that those tend to be much less effective against ships prior to the introduction of skip and glide bombing or gaining the ability to carry torpedoes, guided bombs, and ASMs, and that you'll still be missing fighter escorts. Another issue with the use of flying boats and medium bombers is that using them instead of single-engine strike aircraft gives up the cost advantage of not needing to carrier-qualify your air units, though of course an airbase is still cheaper than an aircraft carrier. A sufficiently large carrier force may also be able to concentrate considerably more air power against a given target than your airbases could, though of course that's less of an issue in the Mediterranean, where there are numerous potential airbase locations relatively close to one another and the likely engagement zones, than in other regions. Beyond that, though, there is the issue that you the player are probably better able to manage the air strikes than the computer can. The computer's not completely hopeless when it comes to land-based air power, but it also probably isn't as good with it as you can be with carrier-based air power and it probably isn't going to make the same threat and risk-reward assessments that you would with a carrier force under your control when it decides how to use its air groups.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Apr 28, 2020 17:56:40 GMT -6
Should be good, though I'd make sure you max out the AA. 15000t ships can be uncomfortably large targets. 12000t is about my normal size for CVLs I will ensure that will be done. I want this light carrier both heavily armored and well protected by AAA. A very good motto, especially for an escort. Drop the air group to 24 if need be. That should free up for weight for defences and is still more than enough to ensure heavy CAP over the formations, providing you have 2 or 3 of these.
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