Note: Number of medium SAM launchers exceeds effective fire

[christian]

May 1, 2020 8:49:32 GMT -6 williammiller said:

A quick note: Standard practice with early US naval SAM systems was to fire 2 missiles at each target (called 'shoot-shoot-look'). Later on, when the technology matured, the US Navy mostly switched to a 'shoot-look-shoot' engagement system. The doctrine on this would vary among other nations, the Soviets stayed with 'shoot-shoot-look' even with their later systems, as one example. A different engagement doctrine came about later with the AEGIS/SM-2 system, because the inertial and mid-course guidance tech + VLS allowed for far more intercepts per time-unit when using hand-offs and other techniques.

id imagine we are still using the shoot shoot lock in the games time frame ?

No one but you ever said anything about fire-and-forget or about the missiles in question acquiring the target without help from an illuminator. What was said about the missiles in question was



1) They acquired the target

2) with help from an illuminator (i.e, they were SARH)

3) after launch.

4) Between launch and acquiring the target, they rode the illuminator beam.



Please read what people are actually saying rather than just reacting to keywords.

which is also exactly what ive been saying but ok

Something that more recent missiles have done, that dohboy was drawing a contrast to, is:



1) The missile is launched with instructive to go to a particular point.

2) When it reaches that point, the firing platform illuminates a target and the missile engages the target in SARH mode.



With this more modern paradigm, the target doesn't need to be illuminated the whole way, only when the missile gets to the terminal phase. But that wasn't the way things were done in the period covered by the game.

actually quite a few missiles early on had some kind of feature to steer the missile in flight before it was locked on

for the s-75 and s-125 it was command guidance and for the talos it was beam guidance
i believe most ground based ones did (air to air ones im not sure about)

[williammiller]

Engagement doctrines are not a 'thing' yet in the missile systems, that would be something for expanding upon later on.

May 2, 2020 4:42:44 GMT -6 christian said:

May 1, 2020 8:49:32 GMT -6 williammiller said:

A quick note: Standard practice with early US naval SAM systems was to fire 2 missiles at each target (called 'shoot-shoot-look'). Later on, when the technology matured, the US Navy mostly switched to a 'shoot-look-shoot' engagement system. The doctrine on this would vary among other nations, the Soviets stayed with 'shoot-shoot-look' even with their later systems, as one example. A different engagement doctrine came about later with the AEGIS/SM-2 system, because the inertial and mid-course guidance tech + VLS allowed for far more intercepts per time-unit when using hand-offs and other techniques.

id imagine we are still using the shoot shoot lock in the games time frame ?

[ap817]

Just a note when it comes to terminology: For a lot of early, long range SARH missiles (in fact up to the modern day, like in the case of S-400 and others), the radar homing system of the missile was only for the terminal phase of the engagement. That is, it was only used during the final leg of the flight. From launch until the missile "goes terminal", the missile is either command, inertial or beam guided. Inertial guiding means that the missile flies blind until homing head activates (some modern missiles can be updated in flight via datalink from lancher), while beam riding or command guidance means that the launcher needs to provide a guidance signal. While this might mean in theory that you don't need a radar lock on the target while this is happening, for early-cold war systems, the fire control radar was the only sensor that could measure the target accurately enough to do this. So while it might seem like SARH/command/beam guidance allows multiple simultaneous engagements, in reality the fire control radar required a continuous lock from launch until impact all the way until high frequency phased array radars came online in the 80's with Aegis and S-300. In fact, for most beam guided missiles, the beam that the missile followed was the fire control radar beam and they had no other transmitters on the launcher that operated on the frequency (some modern missiles use a separate laser beam as noted in the thread). The old systems could fire multiple missiles at the same target though. The reason for incorporating SARH technology into missiles was to increase accuracy, as even with fire control radars, the measurement error became large enough at long ranges that you might miss the target without it. With SARH, the fire control radar doesn't need to measure the target, only illuminate it.

[enioch]

May 2, 2020 8:37:31 GMT -6 williammiller said:

Engagement doctrines are not a 'thing' yet in the missile systems, that would be something for expanding upon later on.

May 2, 2020 4:42:44 GMT -6 christian said:

id imagine we are still using the shoot shoot lock in the games time frame ?

Since you're here, williammiller , could you please also answer the OP question?

Assuming we put more SAMs onto the ship than its targeting systems can support, how is that reflected in game mechanics?

I mean, all this information is fascinating, but the OP is specifically asking for game-related info, NOT how real-life SAMs work.

[williammiller]

Right now you can fire/guide one missile per targeting system. Later on this will be expanded into more detailed missile/guidance/etc game systems, as mentioned earlier.

Now, there are still potential advantages to having more launchers than you can guide: the first is that launchers are not 100% reliable and may not always be able to launch every time, and the second is simple redundancy (if you have excess launchers losing one would not reduce your effective engagement rate).

Thanks.

[berte]

May 3, 2020 15:21:03 GMT -6 williammiller said:

Right now you can fire/guide one missile per targeting system. Later on this will be expanded into more detailed missile/guidance/etc game systems, as mentioned earlier.

Now, there are still potential advantages to having more launchers than you can guide: the first is that launchers are not 100% reliable and may not always be able to launch every time, and the second is simple redundancy (if you have excess launchers losing one would not reduce your effective engagement rate).

Thanks.

What is a targeting system? I seem to only be able to support two SAM’s on my ships. I think I added a third electro optical fire control and I’m pretty sure I was still only able to support two SAM systems. I don’t think a fire control is a targeting system is it? Also, will we be getting a Missile Data info in Ship Design window similar to the Gun Data info? I’m pretty much in the dark on what all these missiles do. Thank you.

[williammiller]

May 3, 2020 17:50:28 GMT -6 berte said:

May 3, 2020 15:21:03 GMT -6 williammiller said:

Right now you can fire/guide one missile per targeting system. Later on this will be expanded into more detailed missile/guidance/etc game systems, as mentioned earlier.

Now, there are still potential advantages to having more launchers than you can guide: the first is that launchers are not 100% reliable and may not always be able to launch every time, and the second is simple redundancy (if you have excess launchers losing one would not reduce your effective engagement rate).

Thanks.

What is a targeting system? I seem to only be able to support two SAM’s on my ships. I think I added a third electro optical fire control and I’m pretty sure I was still only able to support two SAM systems. I don’t think a fire control is a targeting system is it? Also, will we be getting a Missile Data info in Ship Design window similar to the Gun Data info? I’m pretty much in the dark on what all these missiles do. Thank you.

IIRC right now they are 'baked into' the ship, based on the ship parameters & are not user adjustable. Again, in the future, that will change.

[enioch]

Thanks for the clarifications williammiller ! Time to put 12 SAMS on everything.

PSA: Double SAM mounts also double the targeting system capabilities (i.e. you can have 2x2 SAM launchers instead of 2x1)