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Post by skoggatt on May 21, 2020 12:55:15 GMT -6
Making 2" guns have higher rates of fire or giving them autoloader or DP wouldn't really make them more useful. Their range and hitting power are what makes them trash. 2" guns have such short range that they hardly out-range torpedoes even at the start of the game. By 1905 chances are that tech has advanced torpedo range well beyond even quality 1 2" guns. They are also so far out-ranged and out gunned by 3" guns that it's not worth putting them on destroyers even as secondary armament.
In reality 2" guns were already out of favor as anti-torpedo boat guns by 1900, and the Royal Navy found even the 12 pounder (3") gun had limited effectiveness against destroyers at that same time. I just assume that 2" guns are in the game because they were historically used on many ships at the time, but that doesn't mean they actually would have been very effective.
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on May 21, 2020 15:53:47 GMT -6
One way in which some use could be made of these guns would be a quaternary battery which can only use 2" guns and which does not count towards the secondary battery limit. No need for bore selection or mount selection, just a small box for adding or reducing their amount ala the AA guns. They often enough were an actual quaternary battery and were mounted in weird places that could not use bigger guns (like the fighting tops in the masts).
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Post by brygun on May 21, 2020 16:35:43 GMT -6
One wonders if the devs have accounted, or need to, for that different ROF by other manipulations such as the damage from 2" 4/min is game mechanic 6 x as powerful as 2" 24/min. In alternate phrasing that since the game is stuck at 1/6 the ROF to make the affect of hit that is scored as x 6 times to restore balance.
There could be concerns with the game engine having to run so many computations and/or logs being spammed at 25 of 2" entries per minute.
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Post by skoggatt on May 22, 2020 21:56:49 GMT -6
One way in which some use could be made of these guns would be a quaternary battery which can only use 2" guns and which does not count towards the secondary battery limit. No need for bore selection or mount selection, just a small box for adding or reducing their amount ala the AA guns. They often enough were an actual quaternary battery and were mounted in weird places that could not use bigger guns (like the fighting tops in the masts). Although I don't think it's a high priority to add quaternary batteries, if they did it would make sense if you could use any caliber of guns. The King Edward VII class had a combination of 12", 9.2", 6", and 3" guns for example. Practically there is little point in game to make ships with such a layout, but the same could be said for a battery of 2" guns as well.
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on May 23, 2020 3:55:06 GMT -6
One way in which some use could be made of these guns would be a quaternary battery which can only use 2" guns and which does not count towards the secondary battery limit. No need for bore selection or mount selection, just a small box for adding or reducing their amount ala the AA guns. They often enough were an actual quaternary battery and were mounted in weird places that could not use bigger guns (like the fighting tops in the masts). Although I don't think it's a high priority to add quaternary batteries, if they did it would make sense if you could use any caliber of guns. The King Edward VII class had a combination of 12", 9.2", 6", and 3" guns for example. Practically there is little point in game to make ships with such a layout, but the same could be said for a battery of 2" guns as well. In addition to King Edward VII class, it seems like these battleship classes had a fourth battery that was not 3-6pdr (or 47mm etc.): Virginia Conneticut Vermont Mississippi Evstafi Five one off French Bs from early '90s (Carnot etc.) Regina Margherita Kashima Satsuma Settsu Of these, three classes (Kashima, Satsuma, Settsu) and one individual ship (USS New Hampshire of Vermont class) had no 2" guns in addition to this fourth battery. The rest had a fifth battery of at least some 2" guns, though on Regina Margherita there were only two probably as saluting guns only. In almost all cases the fourth battery was 3", exception being couple of the French ones where it was 3.9". So to summarize: There were Bs with unrepresentable battery of 2" guns. This was the most common by far, e.g. Lord Nelson, Danton and Borodino classes (fourth battery) or Conneticut class (fifth battery). There were Bs with unrepresentable battery of 3" guns. This definitely happened as well, if more rarely and often in combination with above. There were Bs with unrepresentable battery of guns above 3". This was very rare, only applying to a few funny French Bs in combination with unrepresentable 2" battery (and I suppose Littorio class of WW2 era that had 4.7" as starshell guns). I'd suggest extra 2" battery and extra 3" battery are seperate issues, ideally there would be both with 2" available at the start and 3" made available later on researching the tech that allows secondary battery above 7". These could be made available only on the "B" and "CA" hull types (and possibly "CL" with protected cruiser scheme, didn't check) There is IMO, no need for customizable quaternary battery, and those few French exceptions can be ignored. (All data on armament mined from Conway's) (Edit) As for there being little point to it, I dunno. I have had quite a bit of success with large batteries of smaller guns near the beginning. If I could mount extra ones on top of the usual 30-34 the game allows I'd consider them, even the 2". The penalties for firing multiple batteries at a single target should be comparatively tiny in the beginning anyway, since there is little central control for such practise to hamper.
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Post by oaktree on May 23, 2020 23:28:12 GMT -6
Having the guns mounted and being able to use them all at once are different things.
For instance, many of the early dreadnoughts have 3-4" guns mounted on top of the turrets. Intended as anti-torpedo boat armament and generally intended to be used to defend the boat at night or in an anchorage if attacked. (And this since it was believed that destroyer attacks would occur at night, and not in the middle of a general engagement.) This idea went by the wayside when it was observed that the German Navy was integrating their destroyer flotillas into their fleet maneuvers. Since the turret top guns could not be used at the same time they were then moved to other locations.
From this I would suspect that the 4th and 5th battery gun locations (and perhaps 3rd even) might prove to be in places not that useful in an open ocean engagement where the main armament would be fired, the ship was rolling, and other factors were heavily affecting local control gunnery.
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Post by christian on May 26, 2020 4:26:33 GMT -6
would be nice to see the 2 inch be a very rapid firing gun available for late game use
it would be a good secondary anti ship and anti air weapon if it has a high enough rate of fire and AA effectiveness
though rof is capped at 4 so its likely gonna remain just as useless as it is right now
would be nice if the 2 inch atleast got DP and a autoloader to give it insane rate of fire and effective aa
also medium AA guns could go all the way up to 3 inch guns those arent "heavy" aa guns when talking from a naval perspective
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Post by aeson on May 26, 2020 7:17:49 GMT -6
also medium AA guns could go all the way up to 3 inch guns those arent "heavy" aa guns when talking from a naval perspective Except from WWI through the 1920s and into the 1930s - the first half or three-fifths of the period covered by the game in which DP guns are relevant. Arguably later, since a number of French and German cruisers built in the '30s carried ~3.5" guns as the secondary battery, including the La Galissoniere, the Leipzig, and the cancelled-while-under-construction M classes.
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Post by christian on May 27, 2020 14:24:06 GMT -6
also medium AA guns could go all the way up to 3 inch guns those arent "heavy" aa guns when talking from a naval perspective Except from WWI through the 1920s and into the 1930s - the first half or three-fifths of the period covered by the game in which DP guns are relevant. Arguably later, since a number of French and German cruisers built in the '30s carried ~3.5" guns as the secondary battery, including the La Galissoniere, the Leipzig, and the cancelled-while-under-construction M classes. they werent really AA guns before the 25-30s at that point they were torpedo boat/destroyer guns made to fight other destroyers/torpedo boats or very light secondary guns or some lone singular aa gun on a ship which likely would not be considered DP by 1930s standards and was more suitable to combating motor torpedo boats a case could be made for the 3.5 inch guns but they are still some 10 mm larger than the 3 inch which makes quite the difference at those sizes besides it would make the 2 inch gun actually usefull make it able to DP beyond 1920-25 (around) make it able to autoload from the 40s onwards make it director guided from 1945 onwards autocannon from 1950 onwards (major rate of fire increase) also a rate of fire buff just from the start even in the 1880s rapid fire 2 inch guns (autocannons level of rof) were available though they were not especially common (outside of the 47mm hotchkiss which was used by alot of nations) such as the 53mm naval hotchkiss revolving autocannon or 47mm hotchkiss revolving autocannon (with both naval and ground variants) 53mm www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Hotchkiss/hotchkiss53mmnav.html47mm lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/9CZprdxvxV7MBEPD3LJtc7Q9yq1srFK8TWMO_x7UF32soiGoF-NoFjvE-7FKQloQmTuB27yOBLkF4r4rg6oQRzb8Ftimb9UWiEnFs0FOGEQLGfvC84Al9Fzk0x0nndNNtlBUuB4bKrbLyE39TTqb4I67WNqKWBYa
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Post by polygon on May 27, 2020 19:26:14 GMT -6
If you gave 2" guns too high a RoF they could amusingly become rather OP, because (if the gun data tables on the wiki are correct) they have the same shell weight as 3" guns.
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