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Post by deadmetal on May 26, 2020 11:17:21 GMT -6
My 90k ton AoN BB was sank by a single 4 inch shell essentially. Prior to the hit it had just low to medium damage, and a flooding of 10. 4 inch shell caused flooding of 1760. I think my damage control was at full capacity, but it didn't manage to stop this immense flooding in time. Here's the discord link to my report involving the incident: discordapp.com/channels/586214065760763925/706894650547503195/714648478080565279I probably don't need to explain how absurd and impossible it is for a small caliber gun to one shot a huge warship. More over, AoN, if not acting like an armored raft and keeping the ship afloat even if the ends are blown off (as it should realistically), should at least protect from something like that happening. However it's not about AoN versus other armor schemes. It was a 4 inch shell, sinking a 90k ton ship, so even if the ship was unarmored, it would still have been completely absurd, unless it would explode ammo storage that is. To add to the absurdity, it was a superstructure hit. Can anyone tell me how would a superstructure hit cause flooding? I've seen it happening one other time in this playthrough, when my DD did the same to a 60k ton CV, with its 4 inch gun. Other people have encountered this as well, as I've been told. edit: Here's the screenshot of 4 inch shell sinking a CV.
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Post by nobody on May 26, 2020 12:13:11 GMT -6
Unfortunately the logs don't really proof anything, because it is impossible to tell the flooding between the turns where it is reduced. In case of the battleship there was also a 6" penetration in the same turn and one more of each 4" and 6" the turn before. In the case of the carrier there appear to be two 4" pens that caused most of the flooding. Either way the amount seems to be a bit excessive.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 26, 2020 12:26:23 GMT -6
It is hard to tell just from a section in the log. The battleship seems to have been hit by a lot of shells. It is not just the 4 in hits that cause the flooding. And superstructure damage will reduce the effectiveness of damage control to some extent.
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Post by deadmetal on May 26, 2020 15:15:44 GMT -6
Unfortunately the logs don't really proof anything, because it is impossible to tell the flooding between the turns where it is reduced. In case of the battleship there was also a 6" penetration in the same turn and one more of each 4" and 6" the turn before. In the case of the carrier there appear to be two 4" pens that caused most of the flooding. Either way the amount seems to be a bit excessive. If you need additional info, it's all in my report / correspondence in the discord. I believe the 'flooding reduced' message comes up right after a hit that caused the flooding. Even if it was either of the hits in that turn, it was either 4 inch or 6 inch shell, but I think this is not the case and it's that one 4 inch shell hit. Either way, it's completely absurd and 'a bit excessive' is a strong understatement.
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Post by deadmetal on May 26, 2020 15:23:02 GMT -6
It is hard to tell just from a section in the log. The battleship seems to have been hit by a lot of shells. It is not just the 4 in hits that cause the flooding. And superstructure damage will reduce the effectiveness of damage control to some extent. Have you seen my battle report / correspondence? It was this ship against 3 BCs armed with 20 inch guns. I was fighting them and their escorts at medium to close ranges, receiving very little damage, and having very little flooding, with almost no citadel pens. Suddenly, just when I sailed up the two coastal batteries while chasing the remaining damaged BCs, it spiked up to this value instantly - it didn't build up at all. From my understanding of how logs work in this game, it was this 4 inch hit. Are you seriously saying that this is realistic?
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Post by nobody on May 26, 2020 16:12:11 GMT -6
Unfortunately the logs don't really proof anything, because it is impossible to tell the flooding between the turns where it is reduced. In case of the battleship there was also a 6" penetration in the same turn and one more of each 4" and 6" the turn before. In the case of the carrier there appear to be two 4" pens that caused most of the flooding. Either way the amount seems to be a bit excessive. If you need additional info, it's all in my report / correspondence in the discord. I believe the 'flooding reduced' message comes up right after a hit that caused the flooding. Even if it was either of the hits in that turn, it was either 4 inch or 6 inch shell, but I think this is not the case and it's that one 4 inch shell hit. Either way, it's completely absurd and 'a bit excessive' is a strong understatement. I feel with you*, but: - I cannot access discord. So no. - as far as I can tell the 'flooding reduced' message is generated whenever you see the "limited flooding" message in the log during the battle. It's a random event and if it appears right after taking damage you're very lucky. That means that anything that happens since and including the turn it last appeared can be responsible for increasing the flooding. In that screenshot alone I count at least six hits that likely increased the flooding. - think about a worst case scenario: the last couple penetrating hits each landed in a different, already flooded, compartments and detonated inside of them. The resulting water-hammer effects broke the neighboring bulkheads, almost instantly flooding those and than their neighbors which were no longer watertight due to battle damage. So, - could the damage model use an update? Probably. - would better logs be nice? Certainly. - Bug? Probably not. *) the brits always seem to knock out my turrets - even at max armor - in the first couple of shots, while theirs are indestructible even with paper armour.
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Post by deadmetal on May 26, 2020 16:45:49 GMT -6
If you need additional info, it's all in my report / correspondence in the discord. I believe the 'flooding reduced' message comes up right after a hit that caused the flooding. Even if it was either of the hits in that turn, it was either 4 inch or 6 inch shell, but I think this is not the case and it's that one 4 inch shell hit. Either way, it's completely absurd and 'a bit excessive' is a strong understatement. I feel with you*, but: - I cannot access discord. So no. - as far as I can tell the 'flooding reduced' message is generated whenever you see the "limited flooding" message in the log during the battle. It's a random event and if it appears right after taking damage you're very lucky. That means that anything that happens since and including the turn it last appeared can be responsible for increasing the flooding. In that screenshot alone I count at least six hits that likely increased the flooding. - think about a worst case scenario: the last couple penetrating hits each landed in a different, already flooded, compartments and detonated inside of them. The resulting water-hammer effects broke the neighboring bulkheads, almost instantly flooding those and than their neighbors which were no longer watertight due to battle damage. So, - could the damage model use an update? Probably. - would better logs be nice? Certainly. - Bug? Probably not. *) the brits always seem to knock out my turrets - even at max armor - in the first couple of shots, while theirs are indestructible even with paper armour. You are severely understating things. The flooding spiked up (from 10 to 1760) in one turn, and it would have been extremely unusual for all of these few hits recorded in that turn to contribute to flooding, which means, that it's overwhelmingly likely that it was caused, if not by the last 4 inch hit, then by one of those 6 inch hits, which would still be utterly absurd. Soon after the flooding event, my rudder jammed, which left me stuck in front of those 2 batteries (one 6 inch and another 8 inch). 8x 4 inch, 4x 6 inch and 4x 8 inch guns of these coastal batteries kept firing at my crippled and effectively sinking ship, and probably placing majority of their hits on it because of the very close range. Additionally, my game has increased RoF for medium and small caliber guns, which means that they have hit my ship with tons of shells in the time period between when the flooding started and when the ship began sinking. Yet none of those very many shells have increased flooding by even a bit. Here are the screenshots of my ship status 28 minutes before the flooding message and a few turns after it started. Side note, all those heavy hits you can see are 20 inch shells fired at close to medium ranges, when I was fighting 3 BCs with their escorts, with just this BB and 4 DDs that were escorting it. Nor this prior engagement, nor the air attacks that have followed caused me any serious problems what so ever. Yet this battleship was sank by either a 4 inch or a 6 inch (I think it was 4 inch) single shell. #RtW2logic
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Post by rimbecano on May 27, 2020 3:48:03 GMT -6
1) For the BB in the OP, all I have to go on is the log snippet, as I don't have Discord. It does not contain enough information for me to say anything one way or the other.
2) For the CV in the OP, I will note that it only took 10 light shell hits, but it ate *4* torpedoes. That's enough to put any ship in serious danger at any point in the game (though it's not a guaranteed kill with good TPS). But without a before and after like you provided in your last post, it's hard to say much more.
3) The BB in your last post has taken a number of heavy shell hits that is, in my experience, *usually* fatal (not to mention that you say they were 20" shells fired at short to mid range). But I concur that, given the flooding and floatation values visible in the first screenshot, taken by themselves, it is not in *immediate* danger of sinking (though 11 flooding can be a problem if you have a long ways to sail to get back to base). ***However***, there is one factor in the first screenshot that does put the ship in a fairly great degree of short-term danger. And that is that, with the ship down to less than half flotation points and still flooding at a rate that is fairly significant on a one-hour timescale, it is proceeding at 20 kts. That runs a significant risk of a "high speed increases flooding" or "bulkhead ruptures" event, which can easily add a significant amount of flooding in a very short time (for the first event, it's fairly common to see it happen several times in a row). And given that half an hour of game time has elapsed between those screenshots, there is plenty of time for exactly that to have happened. The forward momentum of the ship can force a lot of water into a damaged compartment, and, furthermore can put a lot of pressure on the bulkhead at the back of the compartment. If that bulkhead fails, the next compartment is in the same danger.
In that condition, I'd send that ship home at five or ten knots and cover its retreat with my other forces.
In any case, I'd actually be willing to bet that all three of the sinkings you describe are the result of the ships being operated at too high a speed after taking significant damage and being hit by "high speed increases flooding" or "bulkhead ruptures" events.
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Post by dohboy on May 27, 2020 6:32:09 GMT -6
Additionally, my game has increased RoF for medium and small caliber guns Meaning the game has been modified by an unknown person in unknown ways. How do we know that is all that was changed? How do we know someone didn't get confused and make 4" guns do twice the damage of 20"s? As people have been saying, the "flooding limited" message is about damage control. It doesn't mean that flooding suddenly increased to the specified value, it means it was reduced to it. You won't see flooding messages for each hit. Anyway, this is far from the "killed by a single punch from a 70lb crackhead" situation it was billed as. You got in a major brawl and took major damage. You had several shattered ribs, but you gave better than you received. You decided to continue the engagement and ended up having a 70lb crackhead get in a lucky shot on a broken rib, driving it into a lung and severing a major artery.
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Post by deadmetal on May 27, 2020 7:30:34 GMT -6
1) For the BB in the OP, all I have to go on is the log snippet, as I don't have Discord. It does not contain enough information for me to say anything one way or the other. 2) For the CV in the OP, I will note that it only took 10 light shell hits, but it ate *4* torpedoes. That's enough to put any ship in serious danger at any point in the game (though it's not a guaranteed kill with good TPS). But without a before and after like you provided in your last post, it's hard to say much more. 3) The BB in your last post has taken a number of heavy shell hits that is, in my experience, *usually* fatal (not to mention that you say they were 20" shells fired at short to mid range). But I concur that, given the flooding and floatation values visible in the first screenshot, taken by themselves, it is not in *immediate* danger of sinking (though 11 flooding can be a problem if you have a long ways to sail to get back to base). ***However***, there is one factor in the first screenshot that does put the ship in a fairly great degree of short-term danger. And that is that, with the ship down to less than half flotation points and still flooding at a rate that is fairly significant on a one-hour timescale, it is proceeding at 20 kts. That runs a significant risk of a "high speed increases flooding" or "bulkhead ruptures" event, which can easily add a significant amount of flooding in a very short time (for the first event, it's fairly common to see it happen several times in a row). And given that half an hour of game time has elapsed between those screenshots, there is plenty of time for exactly that to have happened. The forward momentum of the ship can force a lot of water into a damaged compartment, and, furthermore can put a lot of pressure on the bulkhead at the back of the compartment. If that bulkhead fails, the next compartment is in the same danger. In that condition, I'd send that ship home at five or ten knots and cover its retreat with my other forces. In any case, I'd actually be willing to bet that all three of the sinkings you describe are the result of the ships being operated at too high a speed after taking significant damage and being hit by "high speed increases flooding" or "bulkhead ruptures" events. 1. There is more than enough information in what I described and in the screenshots I provided. Are you saying that you doubt that what I described is true and you want to see screenshots for every turn? 2. Can't you read logs? Yes the CV took 4 torps, but it's irrelevant, as they didn't cause the massive flooding that you can see in the log. It was flooding at 75, then it took 8 4 inch hits, and then the massive flooding started. Only 2 of those 4 inch hits were belt hits, and it's very likely that the last hit has started the flooding. 3. It's the same incident as in my first post. What do you think it says that this B took 41 20 inch shells? It says nothing, except that it proved that it can tank a ton of enemy fire. Again, you are trying to give weight to previous instances of taking enemy fire, when it's irrelevant to the very obvious problem clearly described in my first post. I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to comment on it, it's just silly. I don't need an instruction on what should be done with a ship that has considerable volume of water onboard and have some flooding, or an explanation why it's in danger if sailing at more than 10 knots. I didn't have the 'high speed increases flooding' event, or else, very obviously, this post would be meaningless. This 90k ton battleship was sunk by either a 6 inch or a 4 inch shell, impacts of which you can see in the log. Is it clear now? By the way, in the second to last screenshot, you can't see a ships speed, and no, it wasn't proceeding at 20 knots, but that's beside the point. If you don't have anything to add to a discussion, you shouldn't be commenting. If you're trying to undermine explicit statements by the OP, with evidence provided, because you don't believe the OP, or you can't read the evidence, or both - you shouldn't be commenting as well. It's players like you that are fine with every bugged / badly designed **** that the devs would throw at them, and are just making excuses for it, instead of bringing up the problems to light. I feel this community has many such players.
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Post by deadmetal on May 27, 2020 7:34:23 GMT -6
Additionally, my game has increased RoF for medium and small caliber guns Meaning the game has been modified by an unknown person in unknown ways. How do we know that is all that was changed? How do we know someone didn't get confused and make 4" guns do twice the damage of 20"s? As people have been saying, the "flooding limited" message is about damage control. It doesn't mean that flooding suddenly increased to the specified value, it means it was reduced to it. You won't see flooding messages for each hit. Anyway, this is far from the "killed by a single punch from a 70lb crackhead" situation it was billed as. You got in a major brawl and took major damage. You had several shattered ribs, but you gave better than you received. You decided to continue the engagement and ended up having a 70lb crackhead get in a lucky shot on a broken rib, driving it into a lung and severing a major artery. Oh no, not another one.
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Post by dohboy on May 27, 2020 7:47:27 GMT -6
Lordy you're combative for someone wasting everyone's time by posting without critical information (ship was 2/3 sunk before being supposedly sunk by single 4" shell, modded game) and ignoring everything people try to explain to you.
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Post by Noname117 on May 27, 2020 8:24:09 GMT -6
Ok, so I think it can be concluded that the 4" hit didn't necessarily sink the ship, but it is obvious that a number of medium and light hits did. This can be discerned by the screenshots presented. At 9:59 the ship was at 11 flooding, and at 10:27 it was at 1720.
The only change in damaging hits between 9:59 and 10:27 was 48 medium hits and 4 light hits. 12 of those hits were clearly scored from 10:29-10:30, which means there are at most 40 medium and light hits scored in a 28 minute timespan which could have contributed to the damage. In addition to this, flotation damage appears to have increased by 3 "pips" between 9:59 and 10:30, and it is known that the BB had heavy flooding for at least 3 minutes at that point. Not sure how much flotation hp that translates to on this BB, but it should help give an idea of how rapidly the flooding stacked up.
So there's the information which can be gained from the screenshots presented.
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Post by deadmetal on May 27, 2020 9:08:56 GMT -6
Lordy you're combative for someone wasting everyone's time by posting without critical information (ship was 2/3 sunk before being supposedly sunk by single 4" shell, modded game) and ignoring everything people try to explain to you. You are making excuses by trying to come up with supposedly realistic concepts of game mechanics that are obviously not present, and wouldn't even apply in real life. Neither a 4 inch, nor a 6 inch shell could start such a massive flooding on a 90k ton BB (especially with AoN armor scheme) irl, under any circumstances, excluding a case of ignited ammo of course. If you are thinking that I'm wasting your time, then why comment? You are adding literally nothing to this discussion, being mindlessly sceptical like that, even when there is enough of evidence in my post for this to be considered a bug. It's a bug of possibly converted flotation damage to flooding of either one of the 6 inch or 4 inch shell hits in the case of BB and same but with 4 inch shell hit in the case of CV. Seriously, why are there so many people like that here? I mean I know the answers, so it's a rhetoric question.
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Post by deadmetal on May 27, 2020 9:23:46 GMT -6
Ok, so I think it can be concluded that the 4" hit didn't necessarily sink the ship, but it is obvious that a number of medium and light hits did. This can be discerned by the screenshots presented. At 9:59 the ship was at 11 flooding, and at 10:27 it was at 1720. The only change in damaging hits between 9:59 and 10:27 was 48 medium hits and 4 light hits. 12 of those hits were clearly scored from 10:29-10:30, which means there are at most 40 medium and light hits scored in a 28 minute timespan which could have contributed to the damage. In addition to this, flotation damage appears to have increased by 3 "pips" between 9:59 and 10:30, and it is known that the BB had heavy flooding for at least 3 minutes at that point. Not sure how much flotation hp that translates to on this BB, but it should help give an idea of how rapidly the flooding stacked up. So there's the information which can be gained from the screenshots presented. Finally, a decent comment. I'll add that it would be extremely unlikely for more than one of these medium or light hits to contribute to this flooding spike. Also, I was running the game on normal speed and pausing every few minutes, so it couldn't have been that I've missed the flooding event by more than 5 minutes. Here are two more screenshots of it sinking - 18 and 19 minutes before the 'flooding at 1721' screenshot. It received a lot more hits in this time period, as it was dead in water very close to these coastal batteries, but none of the subsequent hits has increased flooding by even a bit.
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