game proposes illegal CVL rebuild

[magnin]

I wanted to rebuild a 17100t B into a CVL.
I opened the rebuild screen, added a flight deck and aircraft etc..
the game told me : "please reclassify this ship as a CVL". So I did.

When I tried to save the design, the game cried:
"Error: a CVL cannot have a displacement of more than 16000 t !"


So the game proposed an illegal rebuild. Looks like a bug to me.
I guess the game should instead have warned me earlier that adding a flight deck to a >16000t B is illegal.

[oldpop2000]

Jun 29, 2020 6:14:46 GMT -6 magnin said:

I wanted to rebuild a 17100t B into a CVL.
I opened the rebuild screen, added a flight deck and aircraft etc..
the game told me : "please reclassify this ship as a CVL". So I did.

When I tried to save the design, the game cried:
"Error: a CVL cannot have a displacement of more than 16000 t !"


So the game proposed an illegal rebuild. Looks like a bug to me.
I guess the game should instead have warned me earlier that adding a flight deck to a >16000t B is illegal.

I guess you could call it a bug, but if you just use light and heavy cruiser hulls, you generally won't have the issue. Historically, light and escort carriers were built on cruiser and transport hulls. Battleship hulls are heavily armored and the weight can slow the ship down and reduce the number of aircraft. So, maybe the game needs to warn the player and recommend that a cruiser hull be used. No criticism intended, just my opinion. 

[dorn]

Jun 29, 2020 6:14:46 GMT -6 magnin said:

I wanted to rebuild a 17100t B into a CVL.
I opened the rebuild screen, added a flight deck and aircraft etc..
the game told me : "please reclassify this ship as a CVL". So I did.

When I tried to save the design, the game cried:
"Error: a CVL cannot have a displacement of more than 16000 t !"


So the game proposed an illegal rebuild. Looks like a bug to me.
I guess the game should instead have warned me earlier that adding a flight deck to a >16000t B is illegal.

CVL has 16000 tons limit.
You can rebuild large ships to fleet carriers (CV). You need a proper knowledge/technology for that.

Firstly you have CVL conversions, than CVL construction (both up to 16000 tons), than CV conversion and last CV construction.
There is possibility you can skip some technology. The only one you will always have is CV construction.

[magnin]

Jun 30, 2020 2:31:35 GMT -6 dorn said:

Jun 29, 2020 6:14:46 GMT -6 magnin said:

You need a proper knowledge/technology for that.

Firstly you have CVL conversions, than CVL construction (both up to 16000 tons), than CV conversion and last CV construction.
There is possibility you can skip some technology. The only one you will always have is CV construction.

Hi Dorn,

well I do have the CV conversion technology.
But the game insists on telling me to convert 17,100t B into a CVL (which is illegal, so I can't save it). And I see no way to change ship type to CV (the ship type menu is greyed out).

[dorn]

Jun 30, 2020 7:04:46 GMT -6 magnin said:

Jun 30, 2020 2:31:35 GMT -6 dorn said:

Hi Dorn,

well I do have the CV conversion technology.
But the game insists on telling me to convert 17,100t B into a CVL (which is illegal, so I can't save it). And I see no way to change ship type to CV (the ship type menu is greyed out).

Could you post screenshot of your design of carrier you would like to have?
You need minimum speed of 24 knots to be CV.

[aeson]

Jun 30, 2020 7:24:46 GMT -6 dorn said:

You need minimum speed of 24 knots to be CV.

I believe it also needs to have at least 25 aircraft, and if it's the first CV and under 20,000 tons it'll also need eight 6" or heavier guns.

[oldpop2000]

Just to give us all, a good starting point on this discussion. Here are two extracts from the manual on carrier conversions.

CVL conversions


To convert an existing ship into a CVL (light aircraft carrier):
 You must start with a ship with a displacement under 16,000 tons.
 Use the right click “Open design for rebuild” option on the selected ship to open it in the
SHIP DESIGN screen. .
 In the SHIP DESIGN screen on the “Flight installations, missiles” tab, check “Flight deck”
and add at least 5 planes to the “Air capacity”.
 Click on the “Check design” button and the game will ask if you want to convert the ship
into a CVL.
 If you answer yes the game will convert the ship and you will see the “Ship type“ field
change to say CVL .
There will probably be other issues you will need to take care of to make the CVL completely
viable, such as replacing engines to increase the ship’s speed and removing centerline turrets.

---

CV conversions

To convert a ship into a CV:
The ship to be converted must start with a displacement that is within the player’s current
tonnage restriction for CVs (See the Designing Carriers section above).
 Use the right click “Open design for rebuild” option on the selected ship to open it in the
SHIP DESIGN screen. .
 In the SHIP DESIGN screen on the “Flight installations, missiles” tab, check “Flight deck”
and add at least 25 planes to the “Air capacity”.
 Click on the “Check design” button and the game will ask if you want to convert the ship
into a CV.
 If you answer yes the game will convert the ship and you will see the “Ship type“ field
change to say CV.
There will probably be other issues you will need to take care of to make the CV completely
viable, such as replacing engines to increase the ship’s speed and removing centerline turret

[oldpop2000]

I want to make a simple suggestion. Would it not be easier to limit light carriers to light cruisers and heavy cruisers. It would not matter what the tonnage is. This is how it was done historically and I think it would be easier.

[nobody]

Jun 29, 2020 7:59:53 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Battleship hulls are heavily armored and the weight can slow the ship down and reduce the number of aircraft. So, maybe the game needs to warn the player and recommend that a cruiser hull be used. No criticism intended, just my opinion. 

It should also be possible to remove belt armor entirely. It is just bolted on after all (unless you have an internal belt - no idea how that is done). Some ships even leave/left the slipway without it fitted.


ALSO the game quite often suggest illegal ships of other types as well. Sometimes in uncorrectable ways. I once tried to build an AMC, the game suggested one with mines. I didn't have mine technology, so the buttons were grayed out, which meant it was impossible to make it legal.

[oldpop2000]

Jun 30, 2020 12:04:52 GMT -6 nobody said:

Jun 29, 2020 7:59:53 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Battleship hulls are heavily armored and the weight can slow the ship down and reduce the number of aircraft. So, maybe the game needs to warn the player and recommend that a cruiser hull be used. No criticism intended, just my opinion. 

It should also be possible to remove belt armor entirely. It is just bolted on after all (unless you have an internal belt - no idea how that is done). Some ships even leave/left the slipway without it fitted.


ALSO the game quite often suggest illegal ships of other types as well. Sometimes in uncorrectable ways. I once tried to build an AMC, the game suggested one with mines. I didn't have mine technology, so the buttons were grayed out, which meant it was impossible to make it legal.

Armor was generally either rivetted on or welded eventually. It is very difficult to remove belt armor or deck armor. 

[nobody]

Jun 30, 2020 12:22:28 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Armor was generally either rivetted on or welded eventually. It is very difficult to remove belt armor or deck armor. 

That is why I did not mentioned deck armor. Only "thin" armor (~4") could be welded and only in the 40s. Bolts/rivettes are not difficult to remove (with the right tool). Armor plates had to be removed and replaced for repairs (and to fix battle damage) as well.

[oldpop2000]

Jun 30, 2020 14:05:10 GMT -6 nobody said:

Jun 30, 2020 12:22:28 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Armor was generally either rivetted on or welded eventually. It is very difficult to remove belt armor or deck armor. 

That is why I did not mentioned deck armor. Only "thin" armor (~4") could be welded and only in the 40s. Bolts/rivettes are not difficult to remove (with the right tool). Armor plates had to be removed and replaced for repairs (and to fix battle damage) as well.

It isn't just the armor weight, it is the hull weight. The estimated hull weight on the USS Boise, a light cruiser is about 4658 tons. Compare that with an upgraded HMS Queen Elisabeth class battleship, her hull weight is 12,825 tons. You can remove the armor, but that hull, fittings and machinery weight still exists, you cannot remove it. This is why light and heavy cruisers were the choice for light carriers. Their hull weight was lower for a carrier.

[magnin]

Jun 30, 2020 7:24:46 GMT -6 dorn said:

Jun 30, 2020 7:04:46 GMT -6 magnin said:

Could you post screenshot of your design of carrier you would like to have?
You need minimum speed of 24 knots to be CV.

I tried to included a screenshot but met technical problems on my browser. I will try again later today.

AFAIK, my pre-dreadnought's max speed was 20 kts. So this 24 kt limit must be the problem !

I searched in the manual and saw nothing about this 24 kt requirement. Nor did the build screen tell me about this.

[oldpop2000]

Jun 30, 2020 18:18:01 GMT -6 magnin said:

Jun 30, 2020 7:24:46 GMT -6 dorn said:

Could you post screenshot of your design of carrier you would like to have?
You need minimum speed of 24 knots to be CV.

I tried to included a screenshot but met technical problems on my browser. I will try again later today.

AFAIK, my pre-dreadnought's max speed was 20 kts. So this 24 kt limit must be the problem !

I searched in the manual and saw nothing about this 24 kt requirement. Nor did the build screen tell me about this.

I just used my 1956 game which is completed to build a CL conversion to a light cruiser. I could not build the CVL if I lowered the speed below 20 knots. But if I added a forward catapult, all is well. Remember that the ship, generally has to turn into the wind, accelerate and then launch the planes. Some planes have heavy bombloads like the torpedo bombers. Without the wind over the deck, aircraft cannot take off without catapults unless their speed and carriers is enough to launch. This maybe the issue. Example: An F4F-4 Wildcat required 65.6 knot to take off fully loaded with fuel and ammunition. At 0 knots across the deck, it needed over 800 feet to make that takeoff on a carrier with only about 250 feet of launch space. So, that carrier had to making about 30 knots to launch that 7000 lbs. aircraft. Torpedo bomber and dive bombers take even more. This is why I build carrier with at least 28-30 knots speed because over time, the aircraft get heavier and so do the bombloads.

[colprice]

Hi,

The RN converted the Courageous class from 2 x twin 15" large cruisers to CV (not CVL), the Furious 2 x 18" (as designed) into CV, and the Almiraante Cochrane (ex Chilean Navy) to HMS Eagle - again CV.
The hull weights were Courageous 17400t, Furious 19100t Almirante Cochrane 28000t (all weights for the BB/BC design).

That would strongly suggest that CVL conversions were from CA or CL designs - remembering that in this game them maximum weight of light cruisers is quite limited early on.

I've converted a number of the 1900s style AC into CVL, though it needs engine replacement as well...

Colin