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Post by Emma on Jul 29, 2020 13:14:13 GMT -6
Has anyone pondered the possibility of having helicopters in the game, either on ships including CVs and LHDs/LHAs or on land airbases? Historically they were introduced in the 1940s and were used for ASW missions. I see a huge potential in having them in the game; they can be used for a number of functions such as: rescue, ASW, attacking land structures and bases, help with amphibious assaults and operations, general reconnaissance and surveillance.
For example, instead of sending out CLs and DDs to pick up enemy survivors after you sink their ships, you could use choppers instead to avoid breaking formations and leavings ships behind; They could spot submarines and try to drop depth charges on them more efficiently than DDs; They can transport troops onto beachheads or coastlines to aid with amphibious assaults carried out by troop transport ships/cargo ships/land crafts. I personally am very intrigued by the concept and wonder if anyone else has given it some thoughts as well?
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Post by orlunu on Jul 29, 2020 21:07:12 GMT -6
They do seem like an obvious next step, can probably leverage a lot of the implementation of seaplanes. Potentially, gyrocopters could come in as a possible pre-chopper developmental stage too. I think they would be pretty cool, accurate, and an interesting design consideration if included.
ASW work was of course the major use. They could contribute to a ship's ASW rating, and also have the ability to spot and possibly damage or kill subs in battle, potentially just scare them off too. Guard against the dreaded post-battle torpedo'd event. Rescue work is a very good suggestion too. Other bits would require a bit more thought for implementation specifics.
As well as these, now that the tech timeline is being pushed further into the 50s, it's worth noting that this was the decade in which torpedo-carrying and guided missile helicopters were being introduced for various navies, so there could be a role expansion towards the end, or not depending on dev preferences. Being right on the edge there gives a nice justification of the choice either way.
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Post by wlbjork on Jul 30, 2020 7:37:58 GMT -6
Gyrocopters are quite different to helicopters, as the rotor-shaft is unpowered and instead relies on airflow generated by forward momentum from the regular engine. These were mostly used by militaries during WW2 and it seems only Japan attempted to use them in the ASW role (with 1 probable success). Issue here is a lot of weight on a relatively low power engine.
Sikorsky was designing helicopters from 1909. It wasn't until the mid-late 1930s that the piston engine was sufficiently powerful to make a helicopter truly practical (amongst a few other issues!), and even then they were quite limited in capability.
As far as I can ascertain, it appears that the Sikorsky S-58 (in USN service as HSS-1, later SH-34) first flown in 1954 was the first USN helicopter equipped for ASW work - and had to work as a hunter/killer pair due to the weight of equipment.
Having said that, it was just 5 years later that the S-61 made it's maiden flight, initially in service as the HSS-2 but re-designated SH-3. Swapping the obsolete piston engines for significantly more efficient turboshafts, the Sea King was able to perform both hunter and killer roles in a single craft. However, the in service date I have is 1961.
They are really right on the edge of viability for inclusion into the game.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 30, 2020 7:44:57 GMT -6
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Post by wlbjork on Jul 30, 2020 20:41:28 GMT -6
Tricky to comment on that one, fewer than 40 were built (1 source says 37, another says 20) and only a few were flown. I haven't yet found anything to suggest that ASW trials were attempted, though it was intended for a variant carrying 2*550lb depth charges. However, the weight carried would have compromised performance - cruising speed dropped from 109mph to 75mph whilst ceiling dropped from 7,100m to 2,440m when carrying heavier 2,200lb loads in other trials. Further, one has to consider the effectiveness of an ASW aircraft without assets such as Magnetic Anomaly Detection or Air-Surface Vessel type radar in being able to detect and prosecute threats. Having said that, it was pretty good in the rescue role, though it didn't have a huge amount of room to spare (official capacity of 4). |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 31, 2020 7:51:00 GMT -6
Tricky to comment on that one, fewer than 40 were built (1 source says 37, another says 20) and only a few were flown. I haven't yet found anything to suggest that ASW trials were attempted, though it was intended for a variant carrying 2*550lb depth charges. However, the weight carried would have compromised performance - cruising speed dropped from 109mph to 75mph whilst ceiling dropped from 7,100m to 2,440m when carrying heavier 2,200lb loads in other trials. Further, one has to consider the effectiveness of an ASW aircraft without assets such as Magnetic Anomaly Detection or Air-Surface Vessel type radar in being able to detect and prosecute threats. Having said that, it was pretty good in the rescue role, though it didn't have a huge amount of room to spare (official capacity of 4). In real history, the ASW equipment was based on wiring and tube technology which is very heavy. The early helo's did not have the lifting power to carry such heavy equipment. It would not be until the development of transistors and motherboards that the equipment would be downsized in physical size and weight. Possibly the game could add that to its research repertoire I don't know. But for an early helo to lift that extra weight would be almost impossible. I would also add that it would have to drop a sonobuoy into the water and hover to use it. Again very difficult for the early helo's. A typical UHF radio of 1945 time period, weighed over 51.2 pounds. An ASW system with sonobuoy would possibly weight two or three times that amount. I've worked on tube sets, transistor sets, small scale integrated circuit sets and large scale integrated circuit sets and believe me the weight difference is amazing. Keep in mind when examining the helo's weight capability that avgas weighs 6.4 pounds per gallon. You also have the human, radios, lubricants for the rotor etc. This all has to be figured into the weight carrying capacity. Example: 200 gallons of gas would weigh about 1280 lbs. A human, maybe 140 lbs. The radios and lubricants might contribute another 100 lbs. www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/full_list.html |
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Post by orlunu on Jul 31, 2020 11:13:54 GMT -6
Gyrocopters are quite different to helicopters, as the rotor-shaft is unpowered and instead relies on airflow generated by forward momentum from the regular engine. These were mostly used by militaries during WW2 and it seems only Japan attempted to use them in the ASW role (with 1 probable success). [...] Having said that, it was just 5 years later that the S-61 made it's maiden flight, initially in service as the HSS-2 but re-designated SH-3. Swapping the obsolete piston engines for significantly more efficient turboshafts, the Sea King was able to perform both hunter and killer roles in a single craft. However, the in service date I have is 1961. They are really right on the edge of viability for inclusion into the game. Mechanically quite different, extremely similar in terms of implementation, which is why I raised them as a possible prelude to helicopters rather than as early helicopters. Multiple major powers used them navally - UK, Germany, Japan - and they were mostly used in scouting and artillery spotting roles. As far as I'm aware, the Japanese were the only ones to use them for ASW, and the Russians were the only ones to use them for ground attack, but this is enough to validate that they did have the potential to fulfil these roles, even if they were not commonly used to do so. As you say, really effective ASW helicopters only started coming in from the end of the 1950s (most prominent was probably the Alouette II, capable of carrying homing torpedoes and anti-tank missiles, introduced 1957) so they only become serious hunters just at the end of the game's timeframe. Well before they were great killers of submarines, though, they were effective at spotting them and at driving them off. I am certainly not suggesting that they should be extremely effective in game; they should not be a major balance changer like, say, missiles. I am, however, saying that they would have a role to fulfil and would make a nice addition to the game. I see them essentially as largely equivalent to a later version of the catapult seaplane. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 31, 2020 12:15:52 GMT -6
Gyrocopters are quite different to helicopters, as the rotor-shaft is unpowered and instead relies on airflow generated by forward momentum from the regular engine. These were mostly used by militaries during WW2 and it seems only Japan attempted to use them in the ASW role (with 1 probable success). [...] Having said that, it was just 5 years later that the S-61 made it's maiden flight, initially in service as the HSS-2 but re-designated SH-3. Swapping the obsolete piston engines for significantly more efficient turboshafts, the Sea King was able to perform both hunter and killer roles in a single craft. However, the in service date I have is 1961. They are really right on the edge of viability for inclusion into the game. Mechanically quite different, extremely similar in terms of implementation, which is why I raised them as a possible prelude to helicopters rather than as early helicopters. Multiple major powers used them navally - UK, Germany, Japan - and they were mostly used in scouting and artillery spotting roles. As far as I'm aware, the Japanese were the only ones to use them for ASW, and the Russians were the only ones to use them for ground attack, but this is enough to validate that they did have the potential to fulfil these roles, even if they were not commonly used to do so. As you say, really effective ASW helicopters only started coming in from the end of the 1950s (most prominent was probably the Alouette II, capable of carrying homing torpedoes and anti-tank missiles, introduced 1957) so they only become serious hunters just at the end of the game's timeframe. Well before they were great killers of submarines, though, they were effective at spotting them and at driving them off. I am certainly not suggesting that they should be extremely effective in game; they should not be a major balance changer like, say, missiles. I am, however, saying that they would have a role to fulfil and would make a nice addition to the game. I see them essentially as largely equivalent to a later version of the catapult seaplane. I believe that helo's could have some value like air/sea rescue, submarine hunting near a ship, transportation to and from one ship to another. I believe that early helo's could have that capability. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 31, 2020 16:33:41 GMT -6
I've put a suggestion in the suggestion forum about how to implement VTOL aircraft.
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Post by skoggatt on Aug 2, 2020 15:40:47 GMT -6
In the time period covered I could see Helicopters being a technology that unlocks more effective Air-Sea rescue, but naval helicopters didn't do much beyond that in the time frame. As for Gyrocopters, those are STOL aircraft and not VTOL so they wouldn't be able to take off from anything other than carriers and land bases anyways.
If the game pushed into the 1960's helicopters would be a must, but so many other technologies would need to be added to make the 60's work I don't see it happening.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 2, 2020 18:37:55 GMT -6
I want to point out that this is a game and that if a nation increases the research level of the VTOL aircraft it could move along very rapidly. Another issue is that the first real helicopters were actually built and flown very close to the beginning of WW2. This meant that most of the countries were focusing on technology that had been proven and could be improved with research, not a technology that everyone was trying to determine what it would be good for. Militaries were getting ready for a war, they did not have time to play with technology that had no clear mission. Later, near the end of the war, nations did realize that as the war expanded that there were some valuable uses for the helicopter besides transportation, scouting and Air-sea rescue. Sometimes, it takes a while for the realization of the value of a weapon to be understood. The carrier is a perfect example. The General Board was never very enthusiastic about building large numbers of big carriers, it really felt small carriers and flight deck carriers were the perfect answer. This was shown to be wrong and hence procurement changed in 1940.
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akd
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by akd on Aug 2, 2020 18:46:54 GMT -6
Yeah, the technological gates seem pretty meager. More a question of allocation of resources. All the core elements of an effective ASW asset (shipboard operations in a wide range of weather conditions, convoy operations and dipping sonar) were tested during WWII, and it is pretty easy to imagine a scenario where focusing some money on the tech leads to at least a more effective ASW score for equipped escorts. media.defense.gov/2017/Dec/14/2001856503/-1/-1/0/HELICOPTER.PDF |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Aug 2, 2020 18:55:00 GMT -6
Yeah, the technological gates seem pretty meager. More a question of allocation of resources. All the core elements of an effective ASW asset (shipboard operations in a wide range of weather conditions, convoy operations and dipping sonar) were tested during WWII, and it is pretty easy to imagine a scenario where focusing some money on the tech leads to at least a more effective ASW score for equipped escorts. media.defense.gov/2017/Dec/14/2001856503/-1/-1/0/HELICOPTER.PDFWe should allow the game to take us down the "path not taken" and see the possibilities not realized in real history until during the Korean War where even then, the helicopter was of limited use. |
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