Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 12, 2020 17:45:07 GMT -6
The greatest battleships were a part of the zeitgeist, played a part in making and defining history.
Were to be feared and dreaded. They themselves dreaded nought, apart from maybe, heavily-bomb laden aircraft but of course the real greatest battleships avoided that and were victorious.
No greatest battleship was ever sunk. I should have made that clear from the start.
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Post by wlbjork on Sept 12, 2020 19:17:48 GMT -6
Do you have any sources about that welding issue? It is the first thing I read about that. I can´t imagine welding was a big problem since introducing it during the construction of the Deutschland-class for weight-saving reasons. In the meantime there were several other classes of ships. And from my point of view, having in mind, that the Germans tended to overconstruct their ships, I doubt that.
The only thing I read, without any source, was an issue with the face hardening of the belt armour, because the required tools were out of order (even some Tiger tanks should have had that problem).
And I don´t know who told you English speaking guys the fairytale of the Bayern-class armour scheme, or in some cases "Bismarck was Bayern 2.0"- this is totally wrong!
The only thing they have in common is the turtleback armour scheme and for her operational area North Sea and Northern Atlantic, as a raider, it is the best you can do for a ship- better than all or nothing. The armour thicknesses are very different and especially the deck armour and the weather deck (intended as decapping deck) are two different things compared to the Bayern-class. Bismarck´s immunity was calculated against the French 15" guns and was formidable.
The thing with AA could be right- the only input for some upgraded AA was the Raid of Tarent, half a year earlier. Too few time to do something significant. But the big flaw using C/31 and C/37 mounts for the heavy AA, was a risk and should have been known. I can´t imagine what the constructors thought during their decission- maybe there won´t be any planes out in the Northern Atlantic?
The thing with the bad protected rudder house and nearby ruddershafts may be obvious from our point of view. But than we have to say it is the same with the KGV-class propulsion shafts. I would say nobody could imagine such lucky hits that jam the entire stearing unit or pull out a whole propulsion shaft.
Or why was there an 8" hole under PoWs belt after the battle of Denmark Strait? Or why lost the Italians so many capital ships to their Puglise torpedo protection, that menaced the ship more than protected? We know it better in our days, because we know the historical outcomes.
If there were some obvious flaws, than I would say the "citadel-external" com-wires, AB/XY instead of the known AB/X turret arrangement and with that a shortened citadel and of course the German practice to use separate secondary armament, instead of using dual purpose guns.
If you want to blame a German capital ship design, than the Scharnhorst-class! They were crap and a waste of ressources in that important stage of rebuilding a German Navy.
edit:
And yes, in the end Lütjens´ decission to radio home doomed Bismarck. Not her design. In that stage of the whole encounter she was quiet save against any ship, except those bloody biplanes started from a carrier- even attacking during shitty weather.
I will research the welding issue in this time period. It was news to me also. I believe the welding issue is a hypothesis to explain the collapse of the sterns of at least two German warships after taking hits from torpedoes...though this wasn't that unusual! Furthermore, the Bismarck's armour scheme was neither formidable, nor immune to it's own 15" guns - and the French guns are very close in performance (slightly lower MV but heavier projectiles) - as shown here: www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm. Having said that, the armour is pretty much on a par with it's contemporaries. Consider also that the turtleback forced the design to be wider than contemporary ships, which would have increased drag, requiring more power (and thus boilers - and weight!) for a given speed. She was a capable ship, but not legendary. Indeed, her only claim to fame is the destruction of the Hood - and that was as much a "golden BB" as anything.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 12, 2020 19:29:10 GMT -6
I will research the welding issue in this time period. It was news to me also. I believe the welding issue is a hypothesis to explain the collapse of the sterns of at least two German warships after taking hits from torpedoes...though this wasn't that unusual! Furthermore, the Bismarck's armour scheme was neither formidable, nor immune to it's own 15" guns - and the French guns are very close in performance (slightly lower MV but heavier projectiles) - as shown here: www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm. Having said that, the armour is pretty much on a par with it's contemporaries. Consider also that the turtleback forced the design to be wider than contemporary ships, which would have increased drag, requiring more power (and thus boilers - and weight!) for a given speed. She was a capable ship, but not legendary. Indeed, her only claim to fame is the destruction of the Hood - and that was as much a "golden BB" as anything. I would agree. I don't think that the welding issue was the reason for the sinking but it might have been a contributing factor.
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 12, 2020 21:10:06 GMT -6
Bismarck is a dead end.
She was a waste of resources.
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Post by williammiller on Sept 12, 2020 23:39:48 GMT -6
I have deleted warspite 's above post directed at myself, and his account has been locked for 3 days after certain PMs were exchanged. Follow the rules, please.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 13, 2020 8:03:06 GMT -6
Bismarck is a dead end. She was waste of resources. I actually agree that the Bismarck class and Scharnhorst's were a wasted effort. More emphasis on cruiser, destroyers, and especially submarines would have given the German's more bang for the buck.
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Post by dorn on Sept 13, 2020 11:57:23 GMT -6
Bismarck is a dead end. She was waste of resources. I actually agree that the Bismarck class and Scharnhorst's were a wasted effort. More emphasis on cruiser, destroyers, and especially submarines would have given the German's more bang for the buck. I completely agree. I think Royal Navy would respond for more submarines built however they would probably not build enough ships and it would take time to counter these submarines which would be much more dangerous with increase numbers. But I do not think it will change anything on outcome of war.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 13, 2020 13:12:13 GMT -6
I actually agree that the Bismarck class and Scharnhorst's were a wasted effort. More emphasis on cruiser, destroyers, and especially submarines would have given the German's more bang for the buck. I completely agree. I think Royal Navy would respond for more submarines built however they would probably not build enough ships and it would take time to counter these submarines which would be much more dangerous with increase numbers. But I do not think it will change anything on outcome of war. It's problematic, another "path not taken". However, as with history, the war was won and lost on the land, not the sea.
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Post by samweston on Sept 15, 2020 17:26:22 GMT -6
I would actually pull for the USS Texas. Despite her state she is keeping afloat, and is extremely important in her role as the Last Dreadnaught. I hope that they manage to get her back into a state that can be visited again one day. She may not have had any major naval actions to her name, but she is still a proud ship.
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Post by hschuster44 on Sept 16, 2020 14:08:59 GMT -6
Too bad that this interesting survey is limited to BBs. Otherwise I would have pleaded for SMS Emden - not sunk, but beached ;-). What is a ship without its brave and courageous crew? A pile of steel...
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Post by vasious on Sept 20, 2020 18:13:43 GMT -6
The Royal Sovereign 1889 and her class The center piece of the class of ships that set the standard of the two powers fleet and all the symbolism that that invokes, especially in the black white and red livery The Battleship of battleships as the Dreadnaught is to dreadnaughts
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 21, 2020 15:56:06 GMT -6
I would actually pull for the USS Texas. Despite her state she is keeping afloat, and is extremely important in her role as the Last Dreadnaught. I hope that they manage to get her back into a state that can be visited again one day. She may not have had any major naval actions to her name, but she is still a proud ship. Agreed. Her longevity makes her a great battleship and as you say she is literally the last dreadnought still in existence.
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 21, 2020 15:58:18 GMT -6
Too bad that this interesting survey is limited to BBs. Otherwise I would have pleaded for SMS Emden - not sunk, but beached ;-). What is a ship without its brave and courageous crew? A pile of steel... We can extend the thread to cruisers. No problem. I just like BBs but all ships are welcome here. TBH I like all warships.
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 21, 2020 16:24:03 GMT -6
I completely agree. I think Royal Navy would respond for more submarines built however they would probably not build enough ships and it would take time to counter these submarines which would be much more dangerous with increase numbers. But I do not think it will change anything on outcome of war. It's problematic, another "path not taken". However, as with history, the war was won and lost on the land, not the sea. Without wanting to get into another "thing", I disagree. In terms of the European war I would posit the Western Allies (UK and USA) had the grand strategic initiative in the war precisely because they "ruled the waves" and the Germans did not. This allowed the US and UK to execute the Torch landings and strategically out flank the Germans/Italians in North Africa. Bar the U-boat threat the Western Allies were masters of the Atlantic and it was this which allowed the US to bring forth it's mighty military power to bear in the ETO. The Germans were (mostly) destroyed by the Red Army but the fact the Western Allies saved western Europe from communism was, IMO, solely down to the British and American command of the Atlantic.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 21, 2020 17:24:27 GMT -6
It's problematic, another "path not taken". However, as with history, the war was won and lost on the land, not the sea. Without wanting to get into another "thing", I disagree. In terms of the European war I would posit the Western Allies (UK and USA) had the grand strategic initiative in the war precisely because they "ruled the waves" and the Germans did not. This allowed the US and UK to execute the Torch landings and strategically out flank the Germans/Italians in North Africa. Bar the U-boat threat the Western Allies were masters of the Atlantic and it was this which allowed the US to bring forth it's mighty military power to bear in the ETO. The Germans were (mostly) destroyed by the Red Army but the fact the Western Allies saved western Europe from communism was, IMO, solely down to the British and American command of the Atlantic. My comment above was a little vague. The Allies won the War in the Pacific and the Mediterranean with naval power, of that, there is not argument. Their victory over the Germans in Europe was facilitated by naval power and by a very powerful Russian ally. In the War in the Atlantic, superior naval power by both the US and England won that war, and made the invasion of Europe possible. As to whether the Allies saved Western Europe from Communism, I would only say that Germany was Communistic from 1945 to around 1990. They saved some of Europe but not Poland, Eastern Europe, the Baltic states etc. But they were close.
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