Super-Super-Firing Guns

[kriegsmeister]

So over the past few days I've been compiling a list of ships that were historically designed and built with turrets (primary or secondary) in a Super-Super-Firing (SSF) layout with a turret on the main deck, a turret super-firing over it, and then another turret SSF over both. Most people are already aware of a few of these ships such as the American Atlanta-class and British Dido-class AA cruisers, American post-London Treaty cruisers, and the Japanese Yamato-class Battleships. However there are quite a few more including some conversions of other ships.

Here is the list of what I found so far, dates are those of when the ship was (est. to be) laid down or converted, and a brief description of their armament layouts

Primary Armament

HMS Effingham (1937) – Light Cruiser Conversion with 9x1 6in guns with 3 forward SSF, 2 on the wings and 4 aft (3 SSF)
Dido-class (1937) – Designed with 5x2 5.25in “DP” guns with 3 SSF Forward and 2 aft
Spanish Cruiser Mendez Nunez (1944) – Refit to carry 8x1 4.7in DP guns with 3 SSF forward and aft and 2 on the wings
Atlanta-class (1940) – Designed with 8x2 5in DP guns with 3 SSF forward and aft and 2 on the wings
Worcester-class (1945) – 6x2 6in DP guns with limited angles of SSF Forward and Aft
Minotaur-class (1947) – 5x2 6in DP guns some designs with full SSF forward and others Limited SSF
MN De Grasse/Colbert (Converted 1951/Laid 1953) – 5 Tier layout with 8x2 5in and 10x2 2in guns. 2 wing turrets abreast and SSF over B, 2x 2in guns SSSF wing turrets, and 1x 2in SSSSF on the centerline. Mirrored Aft

Preliminary Nelson- and North Carolina-class - A few of the preliminary designs had options for triple all-forward SSF main battery arrangement. Assumed to not have been excepted for the excessive top weight.

Secondary Armament

USS Wichita (1935)– Single 5in gun SSF over B turret and Single 5in gun SF over Y turret
Cleveland (1940)/Fargo (1943)/Baltimore (1941)/Oregon City-classes (1946) – Twin 5in gun limited SSF angles over forward and Rear turrets
Des Moines-class Heavy Cruiser (1945) – Twin 5in gun SSF over Forward and SF over Rear Turrets
Alaska-class Large Cruiser (1941) – Twin 5in gun SSF over Forward and SF over Rear Turrets
MN Gascogne (est. 1940) – Triple 6in turret SF over Forward and Rear main tuurets, and SSF over forward secondary turret
Alsace-class Battleship (est. 1941) – Triple 6in turrets SSF over forward and rear main turrets
Yamato-class Battleship (1937) – Triple 6.1in turret SSF over Forward Battery and SF over Rear

Looking at this list I propose that a new technology be introduced in either the Turrets and Gun Mountings or Ship Design fields called Super-Super-Firing Turrets with a research date of ~1937.

This would allow the option (via tick-boxes like Cross Deck Fire and Dual Purpose) for the players to design ships with either:

A) Primary armament with SSF "C" and/or "W" turrets

B) Secondary battery with 2 center line turrets SSF over B and/or X Turrets

Both Options would be limited to guns of 6in caliber or less. The Primary Armament may have a -10% (1x SSF turret) or -20% (2x SSF turrets) penalty to accuracy due to excessive rolling from the very high top weight. Secondary guns should not have an accuracy penalty.

Possible additional rules could include

C) If combined with All-Forward armament (i.e. ABC turret layout) Guns maybe of any caliber but with a -20% or -30% Accuracy reduction in order to recreate the Nelson/NC designs. Could be a separate technology at an earlier date

D) If Main Battery is either AY, ABY, or AXY and Secondary Battery is limited to 3x turrets, then all 3 secondary turrets will be on the centerline with a SF/SSF pair Forward (AY and AXY) or aft (ABY) in order to recreate the French Battleship Designs.

TL;DR

Need more end-on fire Dakka

And if anyone else knows of any other ships with SSF layout, feel free to add to the list.

[kriegsmeister]

Here is a few different examples of possible ship designs using this method. I'm terrible at drawing superstructures so I usually just leave them blank.

[navalperson]

Maybe possibly secondary turrets but since Yamato is the only one that has had this to my knowledge I don’t think this is likely but I feel main battery would be helpful for AA cruisers. But I agree some sort of penalty should be present.

[smrfisher]

Oct 26, 2020 18:41:22 GMT -6 navalperson said:

Maybe possibly secondary turrets but since Yamato is the only one that has had this to my knowledge I don’t think this is likely but I feel main battery would be helpful for AA cruisers. But I agree some sort of penalty should be present.

Most late WW2 USN cruisers had a twin 5" superfiring over the main batteries both fore and aft. They even considered changing the layout of Iowa's secondary turrets to a similar arrangement, but it wasn't cost effective.

[navalperson]

Oct 28, 2020 14:44:16 GMT -6 smrfisher said:

Oct 26, 2020 18:41:22 GMT -6 navalperson said:

Maybe possibly secondary turrets but since Yamato is the only one that has had this to my knowledge I don’t think this is likely but I feel main battery would be helpful for AA cruisers. But I agree some sort of penalty should be present.

Most late WW2 USN cruisers had a twin 5" superfiring over the main batteries both fore and aft. They even considered changing the layout of Iowa's secondary turrets to a similar arrangement, but it wasn't cost effective.

I totally forgot about the US cruisers I guess I was only thinking about battleships when I posted this. But it would be cool to have super firing secondary guns.

[thejackhood]

I hope we get this in the future, I want to make my Atlanta Class cruiser lol

[charliezulu]

The preliminary schemes E and F for HMS Dreadnought also included double superimposed main battery turrets (although, like all British turrets with open sighting hoods, they weren't capable of superfiring), which AFAIK is the earliest attempt at it.

[oldpop2000]

FYI

[Deleted]

Give


More


We need more turret arrangements. Quick

[charliezulu]

Jun 30, 2021 21:33:09 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

FYI

View Attachment

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Both Friedman and Anatomy of the Ship identify them as E and F, so that's what I went with.

[asdfzxc922]

The Mogami-class CAs also had limited double-superfiring capabilities, according to ONI:

[wlbjork]

Just because there's three turrets in succession doesn't automatically make the weapons super-super-firing.

Super-firing guns are raised a few deck levels so they can fire directly over the top on the turret immediately in front of them. This does cost some stability.

Super-super-firing guns require the three turrets to be at different levels so the one closest to the centre can fire over both other turrets whilst the central turret guns can fire over the turret furthest from the centre. Obviously this has even more effect on stability.

[asdfzxc922]

Jul 7, 2021 1:55:45 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

Just because there's three turrets in succession doesn't automatically make the weapons super-super-firing.

Super-firing guns are raised a few deck levels so they can fire directly over the top on the turret immediately in front of them. This does cost some stability.

Super-super-firing guns require the three turrets to be at different levels so the one closest to the centre can fire over both other turrets whilst the central turret guns can fire over the turret furthest from the centre. Obviously this has even more effect on stability.

You missed the important part of my image:

The Mogamis were able to safely fire their B turret end-on at elevations greater than ~15-16 degrees.

[kriegsmeister]

Jul 7, 2021 1:55:45 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

Just because there's three turrets in succession doesn't automatically make the weapons super-super-firing.

Super-firing guns are raised a few deck levels so they can fire directly over the top on the turret immediately in front of them. This does cost some stability.

Super-super-firing guns require the three turrets to be at different levels so the one closest to the centre can fire over both other turrets whilst the central turret guns can fire over the turret furthest from the centre. Obviously this has even more effect on stability.

Yes but also no, I think these limited firing angles could also be implemented. The game already views range as 3 equal segments of max range (short 0-1/3, medium 1/3-2/3, long 2/3-max). If a limited angle turret arrangement is set up, the turret would have full 270° arcs at medium and long range, but at short range use the centerline midships angles of 90° port and starboard.