|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 16, 2020 7:39:41 GMT -6
Ok, here it is.
At first, I thought base capacity was related to fleet-strength. It soon became clear that this isn't the case.
I then thought it was related to fleet tonnage, so I expanded my bases in Algeria and Tunisia to a point where they (presumably) could support 380,000 tons of ships (base capacity 380).
But now I get the "We have more ships in the Mediterranean than our bases can support" message, even though I only have 247,000 tons (fleet strength 210) of ships there.
So, here are my questions:
1. Is the tonnage/number of ships/whatever that an sea-zone can support shown _anywhere_ in the game-interface - and if not, WHY THE HELL NOT?
2. Is the formula that is used to calculate number/classes/tonnage of ships that can be supported by a given base-capacity shown _anywhere_, like, in the manual - and again, if not, WHY THE HELL NOT?
3. Is this formula perhaps so convoluted, that there is no easy way to show those numbers? If so, CHANGE IT TO SOMETHING MORE SIMPLE!
Yes, I'm kinda shouting, because I'm really p***ed right now. I have prepared for this war with Italy for about 3 years, only to find out that my bases are too small to support the fleet I build for exactly this occasion.
|
|
|
Post by Adseria on Nov 16, 2020 16:47:23 GMT -6
1. Is the tonnage/number of ships/whatever that an sea-zone can support shown _anywhere_ in the game-interface - and if not, WHY THE HELL NOT? I'm not sure about your other questions, but I can answer this one: yes, it's shown in 4 places (At least; possibly more): 1: If you click on a sea zone on the map screen, you can see the port capacity of every nation. 2: If you look at the left side of the map screen, it will tell you your base capacity for every sea zone (in brackets/parentheses). 3: The Area Overview tab has a list, again by sea zone, of your base capacity. 4: The Base Overview tab has a list, broken down by sea zone, then by possession. One other thing to note is that every nation gets 10 free capacity in every sea zone during peacetime (regardless of whether they have possessions there), to account for the use of neutral ports for moving individual cruisers around for colonial duties. Also, I find that, generally, if you're planning for war with someone, just improving the bases as much as possible is a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Nov 16, 2020 17:50:52 GMT -6
Yes, I'm kinda shouting, because I'm really p***ed right now. I have prepared for this war with Italy for about 3 years, only to find out that my bases are too small to support the fleet I build for exactly this occasion. TBH, I've not really looked into it, because as long as you have *some* base capacity in a region, you can fight a war there without too much trouble, so I'm usually to lazy to build up my bases. The smallest base will prevent internment for breakdowns or combat damage (except for raiders, which are vulnerable even in home waters, and which I pretty much never use), and while you will see more breakdowns, I generally don't find them too disruptive to operations.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 16, 2020 22:01:24 GMT -6
1. Is the tonnage/number of ships/whatever that an sea-zone can support shown _anywhere_ in the game-interface - and if not, WHY THE HELL NOT? I'm not sure about your other questions, but I can answer this one: yes, it's shown in 4 places (At least; possibly more): 1: If you click on a sea zone on the map screen, you can see the port capacity of every nation. 2: If you look at the left side of the map screen, it will tell you your base capacity for every sea zone (in brackets/parentheses). 3: The Area Overview tab has a list, again by sea zone, of your base capacity. 4: The Base Overview tab has a list, broken down by sea zone, then by possession. One other thing to note is that every nation gets 10 free capacity in every sea zone during peacetime (regardless of whether they have possessions there), to account for the use of neutral ports for moving individual cruisers around for colonial duties. Also, I find that, generally, if you're planning for war with someone, just improving the bases as much as possible is a good idea. That's not what I was asking for. I know where to look up the "base-capacity" The problem with this number is that it doesn't tell me a bloody thing. It sure doesn't mean I can put 380,000 tons of ships there and neither can I put a fleet of strength 380 there. What I was asking for was a place where this completely meaningless number (aside from "bigger is better" - duh) is translated into something useful!
|
|
|
Post by nutty31 on Nov 19, 2020 9:39:36 GMT -6
I've just done some quick testing, but I couldn't find any direct correlation, other than bigger ships = more dock space. If you look at the numbers in brackets to the left of the game map then that will tell you whether you are over capacity, with (ship points/base capacity). The ship point (no idea what it's actually called, it's not fleet strength used in blockades or in the sea zone details) seems to increase with displacement, but not linearly. Another thing that is confusing is that the base capacity is increased by 10 during peacetime.
I have 2 BBs and 2 BCs in a zone, with a combined displacement (calculated manually) of 171,200 tons. The sea zone has a total base capacity (again, manually calculated) of 123. According to other posts, that means the base capacity of the zone is 123,000 tons and I should have problems with not enough base capacity.
...Except my base capacity is fine. The game says I have 67,000 displacement (on the left panel, in zone details it says 73k tons adjusted) in the zone and a base capacity of 133 (it is peace time, hence the larger than expected base capacity)...and of that I am using 116. I did similar tests with CLs and DDs in a smaller base, and the only relation I could find is that these points increase with the displacement you have stationed, but not linearly. The displacement of ships in the zone that the game states is less than what I actually have there.
Either there is a pretty big bug somewhere, or there is something hidden that I don't understand. If someone could explain what is going on, that would be amazing.
What was consistent and made sense to me, was that in my other test my 18x1,000 ton DDs was displayed as 18,000 tons in the zone and using 18 points. This would suggest to me that the maths behind it is linear with 1,000 tons, and above that increases logarithmically (at a decreasing rate, IE the difference between 20k tons and 30k tons is greater than between 30k tons and 40k tons. If this is the case then base capacity heavily favours having a smaller number of larger ships, as supported by my 1k ton DDs taking 1 capacity and my 51k ton BC taking 33 capacity).
However, a further complication is that you seem to be having the opposite problem, unless you are looking at different numbers. Another possible reason is that it has to do with technology, where later game technology means you have better logistics and thus can fit more ships into the same base capacity, but I can't confirm that. My tests were as Germany between 1924-1927.
I don't know what the cause of this is, but I would be very interested to find out.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 19, 2020 11:59:20 GMT -6
I'm no longer over capacity, since I took a few bases and expanded the ones I had before the victory, but here is the current situation. List on the left of the map says I have 82,432 tons of ships in the Med The Mediterranean Info window says I have 98,432 tons of ships in the Med (adjusted, because there are a 7 x 1600 ton CS corvettes there that count as 2000 tons, so it actually should be 95.600 tons of _actual_ ships) And if you look at my ship-list, I have, in fact, 146,900 tons of ships in the Med And those ships require 143 points of base capacity In Northern Europe, I have about 800k tons (give or take a few 10k), but the Ship list on the map says I have 639k and that I'm using 697 capacity points. In Northeast Asia, I have about 20k tons of corvettes, but the list on the map says it's only 8.5k. There seems to be something fishy going on here I tried to test this and send some ships to South Africa, where I have a base capacity of 180 (170 actual base + the 10 points you get everywhere) With 195,000 tons of ships, I don't get the "too many ships for our base" message. Add in 16 DDs of 900 tons and still no message. With another two 17000 ton CAs, I finally get it (at 243,400 tons) Removing one CA (226,400 tons) still the message Removing 6 DDs (221,000 tons) no message Funnily enough, I can't produce a result where I can't base _at least_ as much tonnage as base-capacity x 1000 anymore (it's now 1930 in my game) so it _might_ be date/tech related (though my war with Italy wasn't that far in the past, 1924 or so, I think) Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 19, 2020 13:25:58 GMT -6
I can't provide an exact formula for basing strength, but the attached diagram may help. One of the problems in determining exact basing requirements is that each class of ship can vary within a range of "strength points" based on the size of the ship and "strength points" are used to determine basing capacity. For instance, a CA may have a "strength" of from 8 to 12 "strength points" based on its size. I don't believe that this has yet been translated directly into an equation that specifies that X tons equals X "strength points". (It is possible that this could be done, but the information available has made it difficult. I also suspect that this value changes over time.) Because "strength points" are used to determine basing requirements it would certainly be helpful if each ship's "strength points" were displayed somewhere, as well as a running total of "strength points" present in each region.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 19, 2020 16:09:46 GMT -6
Thanks for the explanation - and I agree, if some "arbitrary" strength points are used to determine basing-capacity/demand, then they sure should be displayed in the ship screen. I mean, I'm supposed to be the head of the navy, I should probably know how many ships, say, Tsingtau can support.
On thing, though. In the Sea-Zone window (the one that comes up when one clicks on the, well, sea-zone), the diagram says that it displaced the (adjusted) tonnage in the sea-zone. However, if you look at my post above, you see that this window tells me that I have some 98,000 tons of ships in the Mediterranean, when I have, in fact, close to 150,000 tons there.
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 19, 2020 18:19:25 GMT -6
Checking my own games I see the same discrepancy at work. Playing the Germans, I count 120,000 tons in the Med when I look at the "Ships in service" tab, yet the game shows a value for "Force in area (adjusted):" of 71,199. That "(adjusted)" part of the description seems to conceal a whole universe of mystery. Exactly why is the force in the area being adjusted and how? I'm afraid I have no answers.
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Nov 19, 2020 19:01:13 GMT -6
Checking my own games I see the same discrepancy at work. Playing the Germans, I count 120,000 tons in the Med when I look at the "Ships in service" tab, yet the game shows a value for "Force in area (adjusted):" of 71,199. That "(adjusted)" part of the description seems to conceal a whole universe of mystery. Exactly why is the force in the area being adjusted and how? I'm afraid I have no answers. That much is documented in the manual. For meeting foreign service tonnage requirements, the tonnage of a ship is adjusted upward by 25% if it has colonial service accommodations, and downward by a tonnage-dependent amount if it is over (IIRC) 6000 tons (the latter was added in RTW II, the former goes back to RTW1).
|
|
|
Post by aeson on Nov 19, 2020 19:34:45 GMT -6
Checking my own games I see the same discrepancy at work. Playing the Germans, I count 120,000 tons in the Med when I look at the "Ships in service" tab, yet the game shows a value for "Force in area (adjusted):" of 71,199. That "(adjusted)" part of the description seems to conceal a whole universe of mystery. Exactly why is the force in the area being adjusted and how? I'm afraid I have no answers. (Adjusted) tonnage is the tonnage in the sea zone as it counts for satisfying that sea zone's colonial station requirements.
For ships having a design displacement of up to 6,000 tons, the adjusted tonnage value for the ship may be computed as the design displacement D multiplied by 1.25 if fitted for Colonial Service, 0.7 if having Cramped Accommodations, 0.5 if having Short Range, 0.35 (= 0.7 * 0.5) if having both Short Range and Cramped Accommodations, and 1 otherwise.
For ships having a design displacement greater than 6,000 tons, the adjusted tonnage value may be computed as an adjusted displacement Dadj mulitplied by 1.25 if fitted for Colonial Service, 0.7 if having Cramped Accommodations, 0.5 if having Short Range, 0.35 if having both Short Range and Cramped Accommodations, and 1 otherwise, where Dadj = D/3 + 4,000.
Rounding appears to be done by truncation at the decimal point for each ship.
For example, I have arbitrarily decided to put the highlighted ships into Northern Europe: That's: - 2x28,600t battleships - 2x24,000t battleships - 1x20,800t battleship with Short Range and Cramped Accommodations - 1x19,500t battlecruiser with Cramped Accommodations - 1x19,100t battlecruiser - 2x5,500t light cruisers - 2x5,200t light cruisers - 4x1,100t destroyers with Cramped Accommodations for 190,400 tons all told.
Predicting Adjusted Tonnage (Tadj): Tadj = 2 * floor(28,600/3 + 4,000) + 2 * floor(24,000/3 + 4,000) + 1 * floor((19,500/3 + 4,000) * 0.5 * 0.7) + 1 * floor(19,100/3 + 4,000) + 2 * 5,500 + 2 * 5,200 + 4 * floor(1,100 * 0.7) where floor(X) is the function which returns the largest integer x such that X >= x.
Tadj = 2 * 13,566 + 2 * 12,000 + 1 * 3,826 + 1 * 7,350 + 1 * 10,366 + 2 * 5,500 + 2 * 5,200 + 4 * 770 Tadj = 27,066 + 24,000 + 3,826 + 7,350 + 10,366 + 11,000 + 10,400 + 3,080 Tadj = 97,088 tons
Checking against the game:
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 19, 2020 23:27:46 GMT -6
Excellent info, aeson . Can you offer any information on the OPs original question about how basing capacity relates to tonnage.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 19, 2020 23:51:13 GMT -6
Ok, having the tonnage adjusted for foreign station requirements makes sense, since that number is listed right below the foreign station requirements for that sea-zone (and yes, I forgot about larger ships not counting fully for that, so that is totally on me)
However, what is listed in the Map --> ships tab? It doesn't correspond to the foreign station "tonnage" and it doesn't correspond to the actual "raw" tonnage in the sea-zone.
In my picture above, I have: 149,000 tons in the Mediterranean (calculated from the main ships tab) 98,000 tons (adjusted) in the sea-zone window 82,000 tons shown in the Map-Ships tab
|
|
|
Post by aeson on Nov 19, 2020 23:52:31 GMT -6
Ok, having the tonnage adjusted for foreign station requirements makes sense, since that number is listed right below the foreign station requirements for that sea-zone (and yes, I forgot about larger ships not counting fully for that, so that is totally on me) However, what is listed in the Map --> ships tab? It doesn't correspond to the foreign station "tonnage" and it doesn't correspond to the actual "raw" tonnage in the sea-zone. In my picture above, I have: 149,000 tons in the Mediterranean (calculated from the main ships tab) 98,000 tons (adjusted) in the sea-zone window 82,000 tons shown in the Map-Ships tab Assuming you mean the number after the sea zone name but before the ratio in parenthesis, that's (Adjusted Tonnage) - (Station Requirement). Basically your force surplus or shortfall in the area. Based on the numbers in your example, your station tonnage requirement should be 16,000 tons in the Mediterranean.
Not something I've worked out, I'm afraid.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Nov 20, 2020 6:44:13 GMT -6
No, on the map window, there is a ship-tab on the left (you can chose between ships and possessions) What does the number I have marked red represent
|
|