Division Management

[kommissiongewehr]

I'm not sure if the game's current engine limitations would make this impossible(although the fleet exercise mechanic gives me hope that it is possible), but I think that a very meaningful addition to the game would be the ability to create pre-set divisions for ships within a given sea zone, which are then used in the outbreak of a war.

One of the biggest pet peeves of many players from what I have read, as well as an annoyance to me, is when the automatically generated divisions include very poor selections of ships, such as mixing pre-dreadnoughts with much faster dreadnoughts within the same battle division. While the game's simulation of uncertainty should still be in effect, with individual ships or even entire divisions missing the battle due to anything from repairs to miscommunication, with such a feature in place at the you could at least count on the divisions/ships that make it being in a lineup that is desirable for you. 

I think that although one of the biggest complaints regarding the game is the randomness of the battle generator, the main factor in these complaints is the lack of player agency in influencing the opposing forces, and that the ability to create pre-defined squadrons makes for much more plausible-seeming scenarios.

The only real issue I can see with this feature would be the ability of the AI to create its own divisions, or that if the AI still relied on the random generator, the player would be able to easily outperform the AI with good division structure.

[dset]

100% agree. One of the biggest issues I have with the game is the seemingly random mixing of ships in a zone, and the zones themselves being far too large to allow for any kind of player agency.

It also prevents the design of ships for specific roles. You can't really make AA cruisers like the Atlanta, because instead of escorting your capital ships like intended they're just as likely to get thrown into a cruiser on cruiser action and get demolished.

[dorn]

I would just point out one thing.

Not all times the ideal ship was available. It can be at later stages in war in 1944 and 1945 when allies has overwhelming superiority. 

But it was certainly not true early in war (for Royal Navy certainly up to 1943, for USA up to 1943). Just look at early US battles or the Mediterranean where quite often small Dido class cruisers were forced to fight surface battle.

Or you can just take as example Battle of the River Plate. There was HMS Cumberland in the area, the best ship in area but she still did not participate in battle. 

So the availability of ideal ships was more common with naval superiority (as there were more ships than minimally needed) but much less opposite. Even if there is only one battle during month, it does not mean that ships spent the whole month in port. Look at hunt for Bismarck and count available force Royal Navy has in area and compare with fact that Bismarck was quite close to evade all Royal Navy forces during her run to French ports.

[dia]

Jan 22, 2021 8:09:51 GMT -6 dorn said:

I would just point out one thing.

Not all times the ideal ship was available. It can be at later stages in war in 1944 and 1945 when allies has overwhelming superiority. 

But it was certainly not true early in war (for Royal Navy certainly up to 1943, for USA up to 1943). Just look at early US battles or the Mediterranean where quite often small Dido class cruisers were forced to fight surface battle.

Or you can just take as example Battle of the River Plate. There was HMS Cumberland in the area, the best ship in area but she still did not participate in battle. 

So the availability of ideal ships was more common with naval superiority (as there were more ships than minimally needed) but much less opposite. Even if there is only one battle during month, it does not mean that ships spent the whole month in port. Look at hunt for Bismarck and count available force Royal Navy has in area and compare with fact that Bismarck was quite close to evade all Royal Navy forces during her run to French ports.

Nobody is asking for 100% ideal conditions every time. You can have what OP and others are asking and still simulate the realities of war where the ideal ships and force structure aren't always available. If you want to use the "but in real life argument", well in real life they actually had force structures and ideal ship roles to start with. The current system doesn't even have that, it's just random. 

[hawkeye]

Personally, I don't want total control of what forces will fight in a sea-zone (well, I want it, but I'm aware that this would be highly unhistorical), but give me at least some input.

As a very first (and and this is pretty much non-negotiable, as far as I'm concerned), let me sort the forces RNG does give to me for a fight. I'm the friggin Admiral of the force, I should be able to form divisions as I see fit from what I am given.

As a second (very much desired), let me form the forces in-theater (so to speak) into squadrons and divisions. That doesn't mean only those pre-defined squadrons/divisions can enter a fight, but have ships of a pre-defined division more likely to show up together. Like, if I have three cruiser divisions of 3 ships each in a sea zone and the battle generator wants to give me 3 cruisers, chances should be much, MUCH larger for those 3 cruisers to be one full pre-defined division than a single cruiser from each of the three divisions.

Finally (still desired but "negotiable"), let me designate roles for ships. The aforementioned AA cruiser comes to mind. Sure, it might still end up having to fight outside it's role, but have the intended role I give a design at least influence the chance it ends up as it was intended.



Of course, all of those abstractions and artificial limitations of what ships are available for a battle stems , at least in part, from the fact that there can only be a single battle per month - which is just plain stupid.

I mean, we know there are possibilities for several engagements during most months, since whenever the player or the enemy declines a battle, chances are very large, that another engagement will pop up.

Ideally (IMO), a month would play out something like this:


October 1903 comes along
(there are 5 CA, 5 CL and 16 DD in the Med, but RNG tells the game that 2 CA, 1 CL and 4 DD are not available for various reasons)

3rd October: Medium Cruiser engagement in the Mediterranean
 - available ships: 3 CA, 4 CL, 12 DD
--> choose up to 3 CA/CL and up to 6 DD
--> I choose 2 CA

15th October: Medium Coastal Raid in the Mediterranean
 - available ships: 1 CA, 4 CL, 12 DD
--> choose up to 3 CA/CL and up to 8 DD
--> I choose 2 CL and 6 DD

27th October: Large Cruiser engagement in the Mediterranean
 - available ships: 1 CA, 2 CL, 6 DD
--> choose up to 6 CA/CL and up to 12 DD
--> with only a single CA, two CL and six DD left, I can either try my luck and hope the AI also comes in understrength or decline the engagement.

With those engagements playing out one after the other, this leaves the player guessing and forces him to keep forces available for possible later engagements- you know, kinda, sorta like IRL.

And before anyone mentions it, yes, this would prolong the game by a lot. So just add the auto-resolve from the raider intercepts (or Totugapower's battle resolve thingy) for regular battles and be done with it.

[dia]

Jan 22, 2021 9:17:14 GMT -6 hawkeye said:

That doesn't mean only those pre-defined squadrons/divisions can enter a fight, but have ships of a pre-defined division more likely to show up together. Like, if I have three cruiser divisions of 3 ships each in a sea zone and the battle generator wants to give me 3 cruisers, chances should be much, MUCH larger for those 3 cruisers to be one full pre-defined division than a single cruiser from each of the three divisions.

Finally (still desired but "negotiable"), let me designate roles for ships. The aforementioned AA cruiser comes to mind. Sure, it might still end up having to fight outside it's role, but have the intended role I give a design at least influence the chance it ends up as it was intended.

Pretty much how I think it should be done.

[kommissiongewehr]

Jan 22, 2021 8:09:51 GMT -6 dorn said:

I would just point out one thing.

Not all times the ideal ship was available. It can be at later stages in war in 1944 and 1945 when allies has overwhelming superiority. 

But it was certainly not true early in war (for Royal Navy certainly up to 1943, for USA up to 1943). Just look at early US battles or the Mediterranean where quite often small Dido class cruisers were forced to fight surface battle.

Or you can just take as example Battle of the River Plate. There was HMS Cumberland in the area, the best ship in area but she still did not participate in battle. 

So the availability of ideal ships was more common with naval superiority (as there were more ships than minimally needed) but much less opposite. Even if there is only one battle during month, it does not mean that ships spent the whole month in port. Look at hunt for Bismarck and count available force Royal Navy has in area and compare with fact that Bismarck was quite close to evade all Royal Navy forces during her run to French ports.

Going off of this and what Dia said, what I am thinking of is that let's say that within a sea zone you create 2 divisions of light cruisers, which you name 1st and 2nd Light Cruiser Division. You put your newer, faster Cruisers in the 1st group and your older ones in the 2nd, let's say 3 ships in each. A cruiser battle initiates in that sea zone soon after.

Due to randomness, the ideal ships might not still be available. For example, suppose that rather than your 1st Division making contact, it is instead the older ships of the 2nd Division. Furthermore, to complicate things, only two of the three ships are available, as one of the old rust buckets is in the yard with engine trouble. These two ships might definitely be the only two available for the battle, especially if they don't have radio.

My point is not so much that the randomness of the current battle generator is bad, but more so the fact that the randomness is being applied the wrong way. Essentially, it seems like it would be more realistic to have the player create their own formations, and then have the battle generator take ships away from that, than to have the generator just create random formations out of the mess of ships within a sea zone.

[douglas]

Jan 22, 2021 8:09:51 GMT -6 dorn said:

I would just point out one thing.

Not all times the ideal ship was available. It can be at later stages in war in 1944 and 1945 when allies has overwhelming superiority. 

But it was certainly not true early in war (for Royal Navy certainly up to 1943, for USA up to 1943). Just look at early US battles or the Mediterranean where quite often small Dido class cruisers were forced to fight surface battle.

Or you can just take as example Battle of the River Plate. There was HMS Cumberland in the area, the best ship in area but she still did not participate in battle. 

So the availability of ideal ships was more common with naval superiority (as there were more ships than minimally needed) but much less opposite. Even if there is only one battle during month, it does not mean that ships spent the whole month in port. Look at hunt for Bismarck and count available force Royal Navy has in area and compare with fact that Bismarck was quite close to evade all Royal Navy forces during her run to French ports.

That's one of the joys of the game:

It isn't fair & you don't know exactly who you might be up against -just like the real thing

[alias72]

I support some form of division structure, or failing that, a role feature that affects which ships are allocated to a battle.

It could be as simple as assigning a ship class as Escort (Chosen for convoy and coastal defense) Independent (Hunting Raiders, Raiding, independent Scouting) Fleet (Main force, screens, and attached scouts). I am sick of seeing fleet scouting cruisers in the deep Atlantic on an independent cruiser action when I have proper cruisers available and designed for that role. Their is a difference between a unit that may reasonably be caught doing something as part of its mission and a captain going on a pleasure cruise with millions of dollars in government property in what is most charitably described as a dereliction of duty.

[AiryW]

Divisions would also be nice for tracking ships outside of battle. So instead of ordering the individual ships to move to a different sea zone, you could order the division to the sea zone as a group. Or you could set them to convoy/fleet/raiding as a group.

[christian]

Thing is the game already has division management

In the fleet excercise mode

What could be done is adapt that to use for the entire players fleet so they can put together fleets, raiding groups, escort groups and patrol groups and so on.
This would ensure that when say a patrol group patrolling for raiders encounters a raider those ships will ALWAYS be in the same battle.


Example of this in real life was against graf spee with 3 ships attacking her as the 3 ships were on patrol to catch her.