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Post by cabusha on Jan 30, 2021 21:05:39 GMT -6
I have an older BC that, when built, had 8x9Inch Secondaries in twin turrets. I eventually researched improved 8" Guns, so I attempted to downgrade from 9" to 8" caliber. Instead, I receive the "When rebuilding ships you cannot install additional secondary guns above 6 inches calibre, nor change turret types!". I'm not installing additional guns, it's still the 8 total. I'm not changing the turret type. It's still twins. But because the guns are larger than 6", it thinks I'm excessively changing the secondaries. Attachments:
RTWGame2.zip (299.5 KB)
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 30, 2021 22:31:43 GMT -6
I have an older BC that, when built, had 8x9Inch Secondaries in twin turrets. I eventually researched improved 8" Guns, so I attempted to downgrade from 9" to 8" caliber. Instead, I receive the "When rebuilding ships you cannot install additional secondary guns above 6 inches calibre, nor change turret types!". I'm not installing additional guns, it's still the 8 total. I'm not changing the turret type. It's still twins. But because the guns are larger than 6", it thinks I'm excessively changing the secondaries. "You can change the secondary battery if the existing guns are in casemates or in turrets of 6 inches caliber or less. It can be changed to any arrangement of 6 in guns or less. The same with tertiary guns." From the manual under Designing and building ships, Rebuilding Ships. |
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Post by cabusha on Jan 31, 2021 6:16:08 GMT -6
Fair enough, but seems a bit silly when I can freely lower the caliber of primary armaments, retaining the same layout and gun numbers. I stand corrected though.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 31, 2021 15:20:01 GMT -6
Fair enough, but seems a bit silly when I can freely lower the caliber of primary armaments, retaining the same layout and gun numbers. I stand corrected though. In real history, if you increase the caliber of the gun, you have to change the loading rails for the weapon and the size of the lifts. All these are very expensive and many times the turret is not large enough so the whole turret has to be replaced. This would also require changing the size of the barbettes, again more weight, money and time. It might also cause problems in the beam of the ship. Keep in mind, that guns lower than 6.1 inches can be semi-fixed ammunition, most weapons larger are loaded separately; I.E. projectile, powder then primers. Its a three stage process and would require more men in the turret. |
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Post by cabusha on Jan 31, 2021 16:16:16 GMT -6
Fair enough, but seems a bit silly when I can freely lower the caliber of primary armaments, retaining the same layout and gun numbers. I stand corrected though. In real history, if you increase the caliber of the gun, you have to change the loading rails for the weapon and the size of the lifts. All these are very expensive and many times the turret is not large enough so the whole turret has to be replaced. This would also require changing the size of the barbettes, again more weight, money and time. It might also cause problems in the beam of the ship. Keep in mind, that guns lower than 6.1 inches can be semi-fixed ammunition, most weapons larger are loaded separately; I.E. projectile, powder then primers. Its a three stage process and would require more men in the turret. I was trying to "Downgrade" my rifles though. I was going from a lower quality 9" to a higher quality 8" for the secondaries. Similar to how I sometimes "Downgrade" primary armament on other ships. What you've said makes total sense though for why you wouldn't be able to increase the size of the secondaries, and I agree. In the end it's not the end of the world. I was just trying to save weight on an aging battle cruiser to keep it relevant. She saw the scrap yard instead! Haha |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 31, 2021 16:28:44 GMT -6
In real history, if you increase the caliber of the gun, you have to change the loading rails for the weapon and the size of the lifts. All these are very expensive and many times the turret is not large enough so the whole turret has to be replaced. This would also require changing the size of the barbettes, again more weight, money and time. It might also cause problems in the beam of the ship. Keep in mind, that guns lower than 6.1 inches can be semi-fixed ammunition, most weapons larger are loaded separately; I.E. projectile, powder then primers. Its a three stage process and would require more men in the turret. I was trying to "Downgrade" my rifles though. I was going from a lower quality 9" to a higher quality 8" for the secondaries. Similar to how I sometimes "Downgrade" primary armament on other ships. What you've said makes total sense though for why you wouldn't be able to increase the size of the secondaries, and I agree. In the end it's not the end of the world. I was just trying to save weight on an aging battle cruiser to keep it relevant. She saw the scrap yard instead! Haha Sometimes scrapping is the best solution as the ship is just not large enough to carry the extra weight to protect her against larger shells, bombs and torpedoes. Light cruisers cruisers that are under 5000 tons are in that classification. It is better to build one for one. Scrap a 4000 tonner or two, built two bigger light cruisers with thicker deck armor and AA along with deck mounted torpedoes. Here is an idea when you have reached a research point where you have dual purpose weapons. Replacement larger guns like 8 in. and 6 inch with DP 4 inch guns. Turn those cruisers or whatever into AAA ships.  |
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Post by rimbecano on Feb 1, 2021 23:49:10 GMT -6
One potential problem you can run into replacing heavy turrets with light turrets (not entirely modeled in game as you can simply get rid of turrets) is that the ship's hull form is designed to produce as much buoyancy at a given frame as there is weight at that frame, so that the ship is supported evenly along its length. If you remove a mid to heavy caliber turret and barbette, that section of the ship has the same buoyancy, but less weight, so it wants to float higher than the sections directly fore and aft, which creates a bending force on the ship. This isn't an insurmountable problem, but it makes such a refit less than trivial.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 2, 2021 8:16:50 GMT -6
One potential problem you can run into replacing heavy turrets with light turrets (not entirely modeled in game as you can simply get rid of turrets) is that the ship's hull form is designed to produce as much buoyancy at a given frame as there is weight at that frame, so that the ship is supported evenly along its length. If you remove a mid to heavy caliber turret and barbette, that section of the ship has the same buoyancy, but less weight, so it wants to float higher than the sections directly fore and aft, which creates a bending force on the ship. This isn't an insurmountable problem, but it makes such a refit less than trivial. True, but you can counteract that with added ballast near the double bottom of the ship. Many nations did exactly that. This procedure was followed when torpedo tubes and other main and second deck weapons, or catapults were removed. In fact, liquid ballast pumping systems were installed to compensate for empty fuel tanks to increase stability. This was done mostly in cruisers. The British rearmed in 1934 the Coventry and Curlew as AAA cruisers which increased the topweight, so 100 tons of permanent ballast was placed in the double bottom. These ships had their 6 inch guns replaced by ten 4in Mark V HA single mounts controlled by two HACS III HA directors and two 8-barrelled 2pr pom-pom superfiring over the 4 inch guns. Destroyers had the problem with the torpedo mounts, so that liquid ballast had to be used as the oil fuel was used up. The Sims class of US Destroyers were seriously overweight so the waist torpedo tubes were removed, the splinter protection was suppressed by removing the fluid, and 60 tons of fixed ballast. Later, centerline torpedo tubes were to become the standard to eliminated the stability issue. Hope that give you a brief understanding, I can go into displacement and naval architecture but then you would fall asleep. I do. Note: 35 cubic feet of sea-water weights about one ton of 2240 pounds. Fresh water is 36 cubic feet weighs the same. This is at 39 F. A cubic foot of fresh water weighs about 62.425 pounds, but sea-water weighs about 64.05 pounds. |
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