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Post by solops on Mar 7, 2021 11:42:04 GMT -6
Nuclear subs are noisier than diesel subs. This is a well known issue that I have not seen mentioned. Sorry if I missed it. Electric is quieter than nuclear, diesel is louder. A diesel electric is vulnerable while recharging. As long as the batteries last they are quieter, but that endurance is very low (a few hours) at their top speed, which is about half the top speed of an SSN. For some jobs an SSK is ideal, others (like screening an underway carrier group) they are incapable of performing. LOL. Of course. All diesel subs go on electric motors when submerged (unless they are snorkeling). Did not think I needed to point that out. I don't know of any diesel subs that don't have electric motors for submerged ops. But as you said, battery powered ops are slow, short time things. But if you absolutely need quiet, diesel is still tops. Nuke plant water systems gurgle, even when idling. That said, I doubt if it makes much difference to any nations except those in the upper tech tier. All subs are quiet when your best tech is old or purchased from Radio Shack.
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Post by thomasmacmoragh on Mar 7, 2021 15:28:35 GMT -6
Electric is quieter than nuclear, diesel is louder. A diesel electric is vulnerable while recharging. As long as the batteries last they are quieter, but that endurance is very low (a few hours) at their top speed, which is about half the top speed of an SSN. For some jobs an SSK is ideal, others (like screening an underway carrier group) they are incapable of performing. LOL. Of course. All diesel subs go on electric motors when submerged (unless they are snorkeling). Did not think I needed to point that out. I don't know of any diesel subs that don't have electric motors for submerged ops. But as you said, battery powered ops are slow, short time things. But if you absolutely need quiet, diesel is still tops. Nuke plant water systems gurgle, even when idling. That said, I doubt if it makes much difference to any nations except those in the upper tech tier. All subs are quiet when your best tech is old or purchased from Radio Shack. OR if the people manning the equipment are poorly trained or inexperienced with that equipment.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 7, 2021 22:33:58 GMT -6
The noise in nuclear reactors is the pumps as they pump the coolant fluid while air independent propulsion is virtually silent. Diesel's are very quiet but not as quiet as AIP submarines. AIP can continue to run on batteries for days, but not diesels. The first AIP engines were the Walther boats and hydrogen peroxide. Since then fuel cells and many other AIP propulsion systems have been developed. www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/air-independent-propulsionDiesels are generally restricted to the Littoral Zone which is the area between the continental shelf and the shore line. The diesels are used in areas like the Baltic, Persian Gulf and SE Asia just to mention a few. Just some tidbits of knowledge
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Post by solops on Mar 8, 2021 0:23:21 GMT -6
The noise in nuclear reactors is the pumps as they pump the coolant fluid while air independent propulsion is virtually silent. Diesel's are very quiet but not as quiet as AIP submarines. AIP can continue to run on batteries for days, but not diesels. The first AIP engines were the Walther boats and hydrogen peroxide. Since then fuel cells and many other AIP propulsion systems have been developed. www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/air-independent-propulsionDiesels are generally restricted to the Littoral Zone which is the area between the continental shelf and the shore line. The diesels are used in areas like the Baltic, Persian Gulf and SE Asia just to mention a few. Just some tidbits of knowledge Oooooo, yeah! I forgot about the hydrogen peroxide system. The Germans actually got a couple of boats deployed using that, didn't they?
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Post by janxol on Mar 8, 2021 3:50:19 GMT -6
I know Sweden has the Gotlands, which are equipped with Stirling generator AIP, incredibly quiet. One even amnaged to sneak up to and "sink" a US carrier during a joint naval exercise, which if I recall made the Americans worried enough to lease one of the subs for testing.
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Post by mobeer on Mar 8, 2021 6:19:28 GMT -6
The big advantage of nuclear is the ability to move quickly between theatres. In the 1982 Falklands War the first Royal Navy units to arrive in theatre were nuclear powered submarines. Although different sources give different dates, it seems clear the SSNs transitted much faster than the one SSK used.
Not sure how this would help in game though given submarines never move around and wars last many months.
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Post by dohboy on Mar 8, 2021 8:03:44 GMT -6
Modern AIPs are an important development. In the pre-70s time period we're talking about, before the technology matured, not so much. The applicable examples all had nicknames related to their tendency to burst into flame.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 8, 2021 8:09:03 GMT -6
The noise in nuclear reactors is the pumps as they pump the coolant fluid while air independent propulsion is virtually silent. Diesel's are very quiet but not as quiet as AIP submarines. AIP can continue to run on batteries for days, but not diesels. The first AIP engines were the Walther boats and hydrogen peroxide. Since then fuel cells and many other AIP propulsion systems have been developed. www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/air-independent-propulsionDiesels are generally restricted to the Littoral Zone which is the area between the continental shelf and the shore line. The diesels are used in areas like the Baltic, Persian Gulf and SE Asia just to mention a few. Just some tidbits of knowledge Oooooo, yeah! I forgot about the hydrogen peroxide system. The Germans actually got a couple of boats deployed using that, didn't they? Just for Info - uboat.net/types/walter_hist.htm
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 8, 2021 8:13:13 GMT -6
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Post by dohboy on Mar 8, 2021 9:16:17 GMT -6
The only real relevance AIP has in this discussion is that everyone abandoned it as soon as Nautilus sailed, and didn't pick it up again until well after RTW2 ends.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 8, 2021 9:42:31 GMT -6
The only real relevance AIP has in this discussion is that everyone abandoned it as soon as Nautilus sailed, and didn't pick it up again until well after RTW2 ends. That only happened because many nations already had diesel submarines and nuclear propulsion was expensive. Eventually nations realized the value of coastal or littoral zone AIP subs once the technology blossomed. This is normal with new technology. Many nations, that were not involved in ocean geostrategy, realized that this kind of submarine was far more cost effective and valuable for their geographical location. Many nations found out that they could retro fit existing submarines by installing a new hull feature during the retrofit. Even submarines with this technology will and have used snorkeling. It isn't the answer all the time.
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Post by dohboy on Mar 8, 2021 11:18:15 GMT -6
The only real relevance AIP has in this discussion is that everyone abandoned it as soon as Nautilus sailed, and didn't pick it up again until well after RTW2 ends. That only happened because many nations already had diesel submarines and nuclear propulsion was expensive. Eventually nations realized the value of coastal or littoral zone AIP subs once the technology blossomed. This is normal with new technology. Many nations, that were not involved in ocean geostrategy, realized that this kind of submarine was far more cost effective and valuable for their geographical location. Many nations found out that they could retro fit existing submarines by installing a new hull feature during the retrofit. Even submarines with this technology will and have used snorkeling. It isn't the answer all the time. The only non experimental subs to use AIP at the time were coastal subs, the Soviet Quebec class. They were canceled after 30 out of the ordered 100, because they were dangerous pieces of unreliable junk. To implement AIP in RTW2 you would lower the reliability rating by a good 20 points and add a decent chance of random "sub blows up" events.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 8, 2021 11:20:02 GMT -6
That only happened because many nations already had diesel submarines and nuclear propulsion was expensive. Eventually nations realized the value of coastal or littoral zone AIP subs once the technology blossomed. This is normal with new technology. Many nations, that were not involved in ocean geostrategy, realized that this kind of submarine was far more cost effective and valuable for their geographical location. Many nations found out that they could retro fit existing submarines by installing a new hull feature during the retrofit. Even submarines with this technology will and have used snorkeling. It isn't the answer all the time. The only non experimental subs to use AIP at the time were coastal subs, the Soviet Quebec class. They were canceled after 30 out of the ordered 100, because they were dangerous pieces of unreliable junk. To implement AIP in RTW2 you would lower the reliability rating by a good 20 points and add a decent chance of random "sub blows up" events. For the hydrogen peroxide version like the Walther, you are correct. I would not build them or they might go boom in the night.
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Post by babylon218 on Mar 9, 2021 18:08:20 GMT -6
I'd like an option for hydrogen peroxide torpedoes. Extreme damage potential due to high speed, with an 80% chance the ship carrying it blows up on launch, blows up on the launcher being hit, blows up transmitting into tropical sea zones, or blows up each month. Make it an event with the options being: "Yay, fireworks!" and "No. No. No, no, no. NO."
Or have it be an option in the doctrines screen which nobody will ever switch on because hydrogen peroxide is the most-effective self-destruct mechanism put on a warship since Beatty decided "we don't need that 'anti-flash protection', right? Cordite's perfectly safe! It's not like it's known for being volatile or rapidly-combustible!"
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 9, 2021 18:33:38 GMT -6
I'd like an option for hydrogen peroxide torpedoes. Extreme damage potential due to high speed, with an 80% chance the ship carrying it blows up on launch, blows up on the launcher being hit, blows up transmitting into tropical sea zones, or blows up each month. Make it an event with the options being: "Yay, fireworks!" and "No. No. No, no, no. NO." Or have it be an option in the doctrines screen which nobody will ever switch on because hydrogen peroxide is the most-effective self-destruct mechanism put on a warship since Beatty decided "we don't need that 'anti-flash protection', right? Cordite's perfectly safe! It's not like it's known for being volatile or rapidly-combustible!" I don't! The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide used as a catalyst in torpedoes and rockets is what destroyed the Kursk. The same device sank the HMS Sidon. The leak in the Sidon, a torpedo with no warhead, blew the front of the submarine completely off. Thank you, HP is far too dangerous for me.
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